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Post by antares on Nov 12, 2019 15:53:30 GMT -5
Auckland is a subtropical paradise. AJ1013 uses Köppen's 22°C threshold to argue that Auckland does not have a subtropical climate because its summers aren't "hot" enough, yet I can guarantee you he'd go back on his beloved Köppen and say that NYC isn't subtropical. You can't have it both ways AJ. Just admit you and Köppen are wrong. Eight months have means at or above 14.0°C and no months have a mean at or below 10.0°C. Obviously, Auckland does have non-continental characteristics but that is owed primarily to its oceanic location. Would anyone argue that Norfolk Island isn't subtropical/tropical because of its oceanic location? Auckland's climate is basically a slightly cooler Norfolk Island climate (which is essentially tropical). And don't tell me Norfolk Island isn't tropical because there are "pine" trees there. Norfolk Pines are not a temperate species.   More palms than NYC (a subtropical climate according to Köppen):  A True Subtropical Paradise  |
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Post by Yahya Sinwar on Nov 12, 2019 16:01:04 GMT -5
Norfolk Island is not tropical you idiot ! It has 5 months with means below 18c!
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Post by antares on Nov 12, 2019 16:02:23 GMT -5
Norfolk Island is not tropical you idiot ! It has 5 months with means below 18c! Jajajajajaja good joke buddy. |
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Post by tij on Nov 12, 2019 16:02:30 GMT -5
Yup, I view Auckland as "maritime subtropical", it lacks any months <10c, and many purely tropical highland places have no months >22c (with all months in between 18-22c), with an annual mean of about 15c that is comparable to that Rome, Madrid, or Washington DC. The native vegetation of northern NZ also has a subtropical environment which doesn't exist in somewhere like London, Paris, or Seattle. The growing season is essentially year around. Don't view tropical summers as a prerequesite to have a subtropical climate or many mediterranean places wouldn't be subtropical either.
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Post by Yahya Sinwar on Nov 12, 2019 16:04:06 GMT -5
Norfolk Island is not tropical you idiot ! It has 5 months with means below 18c! Jajajajajaja good joke buddy. Joke? No that’s not a joke Norfolk Island is definitely not tropical . It is solidly SUB tropical |
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Post by Steelernation on Nov 12, 2019 16:50:32 GMT -5
It’s definitely subtropical but the primary influencer of its climate is the ocean so I’d call it an oceanic climate first. Maritime subtropical would be a more accurate description.
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Post by AJ1013 on Nov 12, 2019 16:56:13 GMT -5
It’s oceanic
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Post by flamingGalah on Nov 12, 2019 17:07:59 GMT -5
Yes definitely 100% subtropical, cool subtropical, but subtropical. Subtropical.
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Post by knot on Nov 12, 2019 17:12:07 GMT -5
Warm maritime (i.e. warm temperate); NOT "subtropical".
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Post by Lommaren on Nov 12, 2019 17:26:32 GMT -5
Every month above 10°C is automatically subtropical for me. Those plants will do just fine in Auckland, A Coruña or San Francisco. Below 10°C in winter, getting prone to sudden cold snaps, then it's "generic" oceanic instead. Like Steelernation said, I prefer to call it "maritime subtropical" though since it has no months above 20°C and thus all months are stuck between 10.0 and 19.9 so to speak. I know it's an arbitrary line, but I think it's quite simple and easy to understand.
Coldest month above 10 = subtropical Coldest month above 18 = tropical Warmest month below 20 = maritime subtropical Warmest month above 20 = warm subtropical
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Post by antares on Nov 12, 2019 18:24:05 GMT -5
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Post by Donar on Nov 13, 2019 5:39:59 GMT -5
Here is my stance on the endless subtropical debate:
For real tropical "rainforest" climates, continentality doesn't really alter the climate: just compare Iquitos and Honiara, they have almost the same average temperatures (only records are affected). Subtropical can be seen as the warm end of oceanic or continental climates, i.e. average temperatures are affected by low or high continentality. So there are essentially two types of subtropical climates, a continental and an oceanic one. Everything is of course a continuum without clear borders. Auckland and Norfolk Island have a clear oceanic influence, Noumea less so and Port Vila almost none regarding averages. Same thing for the border towards the colder oceanic or continental climates.
If being able to grow tropical plants is a criterion, then a place like Turkistan, Kazakhstan en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkistan_(city)#Geography_and_climate where watermelons native from tropical Africa thrive should be subtropical too. Only focusing on perennials like palms doesn't work imho, so I wouldn't take plants as the sole criterion. |
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Post by flamingGalah on Nov 13, 2019 11:40:55 GMT -5
Some plants (including certain species of palms) are actually good "indicator plants" of the climate they grow in, for example Auckland can grow many species of palm that will only grow in a subtropical or warmer climate, they won't grow in cool summer but mild winter climates like the Scilly Isles & they won't grow in places with hot summers & colder winters like the SE US.
The whole subtropical debate simply proves how flawed the Koppen system is.
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Post by Donar on Nov 13, 2019 11:55:28 GMT -5
Don't see the relevance of plants that only grow in summer, as environments aren't determined by what grow in summer - watermelons grow here also, so having them isn't really a point of difference. Why do you think focusing on perennial plants doesn't work? I don't see the relevance of plants or environments at all. Norfolk, Virginia isn't less subtropical than Auckland for example although it can't grow as many palm species. |
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Post by AJ1013 on Nov 13, 2019 13:38:19 GMT -5
I don't see the relevance of plants or environments at all. Norfolk, Virginia isn't less subtropical than Auckland for example although it can't grow as many palm species. Then you're really just saying that vegetation doesn't reflect the climate. Why are you so fixated on vegetation. And not just any vegetation, just plants that don't like cold record lows. |
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Post by AJ1013 on Nov 13, 2019 13:46:28 GMT -5
Why are you so fixated on vegetation. And not just any vegetation, just plants that don't like cold record lows. Everywhere gets record cold lows. Vegetation reflect a spectrum of life supporting warmth -people devise classifications that ignore this, but ol Mother Nature does her own thing that reflect that spectrum. To a plant not hardy to cold one day of 45/20 followed by a rapid warmup to consistent 70/55 is much colder than 45/40 all winter long. You tell me which would feel colder to you, as a human. If you can honestly say scenario one sounds colder then you may have a point in using vegetation in your arguments the way that you do. |
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Post by Donar on Nov 13, 2019 14:50:16 GMT -5
Then you're really just saying that vegetation doesn't reflect the climate. Why should we use a proxy when we can actually measure the climate, that doesnt make sense to me... |
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Post by tij on Nov 13, 2019 16:06:14 GMT -5
Doesn't make sense to differentiate between subtropical and temperate locales without the distinction corresponding to a significant ecological/environmental difference between places without a severe enough dormancy season/winter to halt all vegetation growth and those with a cool season that is mild enough that plant and animal life during the warm season continues on uninterrupted for the most part. This also roughly corresponds (but not precisely, hence resulting in the dispute here regarding places like the American South) to the places where airmasses originating in the tropics drive meteorological conditions during the summer and those systems originating in the temperate, mid-latitudes determine those during the winter.
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Post by longaotian on Nov 17, 2019 1:18:22 GMT -5
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Post by Beercules on Nov 17, 2019 1:24:53 GMT -5
To a plant not hardy to cold one day of 45/20 followed by a rapid warmup to consistent 70/55 is much colder than 45/40 all winter long. You tell me which would feel colder to you, as a human. If you can honestly say scenario one sounds colder then you may have a point in using vegetation in your arguments the way that you do. Atlanta has similar winter averages to Motueka, but gets warmer and colder -overall, I'd say it feels colder than Motueka. In winter perhaps. Rest of the year is far far warmer in Atlanta. |
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