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Post by tommyFL on Jun 3, 2021 10:21:29 GMT -5
B-. Far too mild, and too wet and cloudy.
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Post by Cadeau on Jun 3, 2021 11:00:02 GMT -5
A solid grade B. Well-improved especially looking at the warmer months of the year. I assume such a climate exists in real-world somewhere in the coastal NSW between Wollongong and Canberra.
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Post by knot on Jun 3, 2021 17:27:00 GMT -5
Maybe a good template for this still of climate would be Mallacoota. Has generally flat (relative to GDR) land to the west of it where low pressure systems come from, still close to the east coast warm current. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallacoota,_Victoria I'd add about 2C to each month in average highs to account for the latitude. And maybe 2.5C for the lows due to the warmer sea temperatures around Sydney (less chance of foehn winds=lower diurnals perhaps although a rather minor change compared to current sydney) Nope, Mallacoota is a leeward climate as well (as correctly mentioned by Babu)…with a steeper altitudinal gradient from the west, especially the northwest. In fact, even Melbourne is pretty much the same thing as Sydney/Mallacoota, but at 38° S; note its very warm maxima and extremely low winter precip relative to, say, Warrnambool. The Yarra Ranges/Central Highlands aren't even that high, yet Melbourne still gets a pronounced foehn effect in a westerly flow. |
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Post by Moron on Jun 3, 2021 17:54:24 GMT -5
Fair. I was looking more at the flatter eastern victorian area and saying that Mallacoota cooould be the most accurate analogue (not good but the best we've got). I was saying last night that most liwkly a Sydney without GDR would have a slightly more med pattern, very similar summers, cooler winters.
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Post by knot on Jun 3, 2021 18:43:56 GMT -5
A better comparison is Merriwa vs Tamworth. (Merriwa is circled) The two stations are at the same altitude and the same distance to the ocean, but on different sides of the GDR. Tamworth averaged 33.0/17.7 for Jan 92-21, and Merriwa averaged 31.7/16.9 for Jan 07-21. Maybe the 07-21 period was much colder, maybe it was much warmer. I don't know. Seems pretty clear to me that it's not obvious that the GDR makes the ocean side warmer though. Merriwa vs Tamworth is an awful comparison because, 1. the latitudinal temp gradient from 31° to 32° S in NSW is profound, especially when it comes to winter maxima, and 2. Merriwa isn't leeward in a westerly flow (only in the lee of the Coolah Tops to the north). A better comparison would be between Canberra and Corryong—mind you, the latitudinal temp gradient between 35° and 36° S is virtually non-existent, but Corryong is almost 300 m lower than Canberra. • [Leeward] Canberra Airport (2008–2021; 577 m AMSL)• [Windward] Corryong Airport (2006–2021; 290 m AMSL)Note also that Corryong is significantly farther inland than Canberra: |
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Post by Babu on Jun 4, 2021 2:11:35 GMT -5
A better comparison is Merriwa vs Tamworth. (Merriwa is circled) The two stations are at the same altitude and the same distance to the ocean, but on different sides of the GDR. Tamworth averaged 33.0/17.7 for Jan 92-21, and Merriwa averaged 31.7/16.9 for Jan 07-21. Maybe the 07-21 period was much colder, maybe it was much warmer. I don't know. Seems pretty clear to me that it's not obvious that the GDR makes the ocean side warmer though. Merriwa vs Tamworth is an awful comparison because, 1. the latitudinal temp gradient from 31° to 32° S in NSW is profound, especially when it comes to winter maxima, and 2. Merriwa isn't leeward in a westerly flow (only in the lee of the Coolah Tops to the north). A better comparison would be between Canberra and Corryong—mind you, the latitudinal temp gradient between 35° and 36° S is virtually non-existent, but Corryong is almost 300 m lower than Canberra. • [Leeward] Canberra Airport (2008–2021; 577 m AMSL)• [Windward] Corryong Airport (2006–2021; 290 m AMSL)Note also that Corryong is significantly farther inland than Canberra: They're literally on the same side of the GDR mate. If Merriwa is such a shitty example, how come there's basically no difference at all in averages between Singleton and Richmond? Richmond has the "Western leeward mountains", and Singleton apparently doesn't. Look, you're basically saying this: Föhn winds are warm, thus the eastern side of the mountain range must be warm. But you're forgetting that western winds only account for only a couple % of the wind rose in Sydney in summer. If the wind is almost always coming from the east, then the western side of the mountain range would obviously be the benefactors of the mountain range. And föhn winds mainly occur when humid air loses humidity due to oreographic rain. Normal dry desert winds over a mountain range aren't going to be warmer when they get to the other side. Naturally it would then make sense for the western side to be the main benefactor of the föhn effect since almost all of the time, the wind is blowing from the east, and that eastern air is going to be humid ocean air that easily condenses from oreographic lift. The western part of the mountain range is definitely, 100%, warmer on average than they would be if there were no mountain range. But mountain ranges don't just make everywhere around them warmer. If one side of the mountains is made warmer, the other is gonna be made cooler. |
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Post by Ethereal on Jun 4, 2021 3:15:06 GMT -5
Merriwa vs Tamworth is an awful comparison because, 1. the latitudinal temp gradient from 31° to 32° S in NSW is profound, especially when it comes to winter maxima, and 2. Merriwa isn't leeward in a westerly flow (only in the lee of the Coolah Tops to the north). A better comparison would be between Canberra and Corryong—mind you, the latitudinal temp gradient between 35° and 36° S is virtually non-existent, but Corryong is almost 300 m lower than Canberra. • [Leeward] Canberra Airport (2008–2021; 577 m AMSL)• [Windward] Corryong Airport (2006–2021; 290 m AMSL)Note also that Corryong is significantly farther inland than Canberra: They're literally on the same side of the GDR mate. If Merriwa is such a shitty example, how come there's basically no difference at all in averages between Singleton and Richmond? Richmond has the "Western leeward mountains", and Singleton apparently doesn't.Look, you're basically saying this: Föhn winds are warm, thus the eastern side of the mountain range must be warm. But you're forgetting that western winds only account for only a couple % of the wind rose in Sydney in summer. If the wind is almost always coming from the east, then the western side of the mountain range would obviously be the benefactors of the mountain range. And föhn winds mainly occur when humid air loses humidity due to oreographic rain. Normal dry desert winds over a mountain range aren't going to be warmer when they get to the other side. Naturally it would then make sense for the western side to be the main benefactor of the föhn effect since almost all of the time, the wind is blowing from the east, and that eastern air is going to be humid ocean air that easily condenses from oreographic lift. The western part of the mountain range is definitely, 100%, warmer on average than they would be if there were no mountain range. But mountain ranges don't just make everywhere around them warmer. If one side of the mountains is made warmer, the other is gonna be made cooler. One thing though, Singleton is situated in a valley. Even the region that the town is in is called the Hunter Valley. The area is literally flanked by mountains to the north and west. |
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Post by Babu on Jun 4, 2021 3:43:00 GMT -5
They're literally on the same side of the GDR mate. If Merriwa is such a shitty example, how come there's basically no difference at all in averages between Singleton and Richmond? Richmond has the "Western leeward mountains", and Singleton apparently doesn't.Look, you're basically saying this: Föhn winds are warm, thus the eastern side of the mountain range must be warm. But you're forgetting that western winds only account for only a couple % of the wind rose in Sydney in summer. If the wind is almost always coming from the east, then the western side of the mountain range would obviously be the benefactors of the mountain range. And föhn winds mainly occur when humid air loses humidity due to oreographic rain. Normal dry desert winds over a mountain range aren't going to be warmer when they get to the other side. Naturally it would then make sense for the western side to be the main benefactor of the föhn effect since almost all of the time, the wind is blowing from the east, and that eastern air is going to be humid ocean air that easily condenses from oreographic lift. The western part of the mountain range is definitely, 100%, warmer on average than they would be if there were no mountain range. But mountain ranges don't just make everywhere around them warmer. If one side of the mountains is made warmer, the other is gonna be made cooler. One thing though, Singleton is situated in a valley. Even the region that the town is in is called the Hunter Valley. The area is literally flanked by mountains to the north and west. Same is true for Merriwa, isn't it? |
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Post by knot on Jun 4, 2021 4:01:26 GMT -5
They're literally on the same side of the GDR mate. If Merriwa is such a shitty example, how come there's basically no difference at all in averages between Singleton and Richmond? Richmond has the "Western leeward mountains", and Singleton apparently doesn't. Look, you're basically saying this: Föhn winds are warm, thus the eastern side of the mountain range must be warm. But you're forgetting that western winds only account for only a couple % of the wind rose in Sydney in summer. If the wind is almost always coming from the east, then the western side of the mountain range would obviously be the benefactors of the mountain range. And föhn winds mainly occur when humid air loses humidity due to oreographic rain. Normal dry desert winds over a mountain range aren't going to be warmer when they get to the other side. Naturally it would then make sense for the western side to be the main benefactor of the föhn effect since almost all of the time, the wind is blowing from the east, and that eastern air is going to be humid ocean air that easily condenses from oreographic lift. The western part of the mountain range is definitely, 100%, warmer on average than they would be if there were no mountain range. But mountain ranges don't just make everywhere around them warmer. If one side of the mountains is made warmer, the other is gonna be made cooler. "They're on the same side of the range mate"—what? Merriwa and Tamworth? Yeah, and that's exactly what I said. You've changed nothing whatsoever. As for Singleton…it's actually on the lee, and really shows it with its extreme record highs for a coastal location (data from the more complete Cessnock Airport). And again, the latitudinal temp gradient in the NSW Subtropics (< 34.5° S) is particularly steep, so you can just forget about Richmond mmmkay. |
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Post by knot on Jun 4, 2021 4:13:22 GMT -5
Same is true for Merriwa, isn't it? Not in the slightest: ^Merriwa marked 255 m; Singleton marked 44 m. You can see from the above map that Merriwa is very clearly on the windward side of the range (that dark-green mountainous area between the two towns); and that Singleton is, in fact, in the lee of all westerly-based flows. |
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Post by Babu on Jun 4, 2021 5:31:58 GMT -5
They're literally on the same side of the GDR mate. If Merriwa is such a shitty example, how come there's basically no difference at all in averages between Singleton and Richmond? Richmond has the "Western leeward mountains", and Singleton apparently doesn't. Look, you're basically saying this: Föhn winds are warm, thus the eastern side of the mountain range must be warm. But you're forgetting that western winds only account for only a couple % of the wind rose in Sydney in summer. If the wind is almost always coming from the east, then the western side of the mountain range would obviously be the benefactors of the mountain range. And föhn winds mainly occur when humid air loses humidity due to oreographic rain. Normal dry desert winds over a mountain range aren't going to be warmer when they get to the other side. Naturally it would then make sense for the western side to be the main benefactor of the föhn effect since almost all of the time, the wind is blowing from the east, and that eastern air is going to be humid ocean air that easily condenses from oreographic lift. The western part of the mountain range is definitely, 100%, warmer on average than they would be if there were no mountain range. But mountain ranges don't just make everywhere around them warmer. If one side of the mountains is made warmer, the other is gonna be made cooler. "They're on the same side of the range mate"—what? Merriwa and Tamworth? Yeah, and that's exactly what I said. You've changed nothing whatsoever. As for Singleton…it's actually on the lee, and really shows it with its extreme record highs for a coastal location (data from the more complete Cessnock Airport). And again, the latitudinal temp gradient in the NSW Subtropics (< 34.5° S) is particularly steep, so you can just forget about Richmond mmmkay. I meant Canberra and that other place. |
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Post by knot on Jun 4, 2021 6:17:12 GMT -5
I meant Canberra and that other place. Canberra and Corryong?? You're either trolling, or just downright blind. The GDR between them is 1,500+ m stretching hundreds of km north-to-south FFS. The divide is so obvious, that one can plainly see the contrast of green and yellow grass on the western and eastern sides of the range respectively. And the difference in climate is even more striking (relative to elevation). |
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Post by Babu on Jun 4, 2021 6:44:50 GMT -5
I meant Canberra and that other place. Canberra and Corryong?? You're either trolling, or just downright blind. The GDR between them is 1,500+ m stretching hundreds of km north-to-south FFS. The divide is so obvious, that one can plainly see the contrast of green and yellow grass on the western and eastern sides of the range respectively. And the difference in climate is even more striking (relative to elevation).  If I had to choose which side of the GDR Canberra is on, I'd definitely say the western/inland side. Anyway, this discussion is starting to get mindnumbingly obnoxious. Let's just agree to disagree lol. I just don't think it's fair to call me for having a different opinion than you. |
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Post by knot on Jun 5, 2021 1:30:18 GMT -5
^Ummmmmmmm that map only proves my point. Just shot yourself in the foot mein neger.
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Post by Ethereal on Jun 5, 2021 2:44:01 GMT -5
Canberra and Corryong?? You're either trolling, or just downright blind. The GDR between them is 1,500+ m stretching hundreds of km north-to-south FFS. The divide is so obvious, that one can plainly see the contrast of green and yellow grass on the western and eastern sides of the range respectively. And the difference in climate is even more striking (relative to elevation). If I had to choose which side of the GDR Canberra is on, I'd definitely say the western/inland side. Anyway, this discussion is starting to get mindnumbingly obnoxious. Let's just agree to disagree lol. I just don't think it's fair to call me for having a different opinion than you. Come on, bro. You can clearly see that Canberra is on the eastern side of the ranges (whilst being inland), which coat it from the southwest cold fronts. As the saying goes, a picture says a thousand words. Now there are craggy mountains on its east, but they're not that tall or prominent, and you can sort of tell by their insignificant elevation. |
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Post by knot on Jun 5, 2021 4:54:37 GMT -5
Now there are craggy mountains on its east, but they're not that tall or prominent, and you can sort of tell by their insignificant elevation. Yep, Babu mistook the Tinderry Range (those smaller mountains to the east) for the GDR…lol! You can't make this shit up. |
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Post by Ethereal on Jun 7, 2021 1:19:51 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I didn't even have a say on the hypothetical, GDR-less Sydney.
D+ for me. Way too wet and gloomy in the winter. That cold depressing rain will drive me insane. And that immense wetness will prevail from March through to fucking September -- Hell to the no! The only good months seem Nov-Feb.
The GDR are literally our climatic saviours.
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Post by Marcelo on Jun 8, 2021 8:58:19 GMT -5
Without the Dividing Range, the Eastern coast of Australia would be drier, with maybe 700-800 mm per year. The subtropical ridge wouldn’t allow so much rainfall. The Eastern half of the outback would be a bit wetter, though, with fewer temperature extremes.
So places like Sydney would have higher mean maximums in the summer but lower all-time highs. Something like 750 mm evenly distributed throughout the year and temperature averages going from 24/25°C in the summer to 11/12°C in the winter sounds more fitting to me.
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Post by knot on Jun 8, 2021 16:58:47 GMT -5
Without the Dividing Range, the Eastern coast of Australia would be drier, with maybe 700-800 mm per year. The subtropical ridge wouldn’t allow so much rainfall. The Eastern half of the outback would be a bit wetter, though, with fewer temperature extremes. So places like Sydney would have higher mean maximums in the summer but lower all-time highs. Something like 750 mm evenly distributed throughout the year and temperature averages going from 24/25°C in the summer to 11/12°C in the winter sounds more fitting to me. Define "Eastern Coast of Australia". If you mean the entire eastern half (including the inland slopes), then yes, I agree with you—for instance, elevation is the only reason I (Maragle) even get 1,200 mm annually. Once that elevated region is gone, the state's average precip obviously drops; but Sydney can only benefit in this scenario, as it'll be windward from all directions and it's directly on the coast. What makes you think it'll get hotter summers without the GDR? Explain yourself thoroughly. |
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Post by Marcelo on Jun 8, 2021 22:19:26 GMT -5
What makes you think it'll get hotter summers without the GDR? Explain yourself thoroughly.
Sure.
No significant elevations or topographic noise would mean free way for persistent continental northerly winds to reach Sydney –not VERY continental as the trajectory of the air mass wouldn’t go through a lot of landmass-, but enough to bring a lot of sunny 31-33C days. Yes, there would be a lot of Northeast too, plus the breeze lurking around and the sporadic cold fronts which would help activate convection and cool down temps. So I can imagine some 20/27C summer averages becoming something like 20/29C.
OTOH, there would be also free way for winds from the Southwest to bring some interesting winter lows, so I can see winters being a bit cooler too. We can’t expect a mid-low latitude spot exposed to a lot of land to the west to keep an annual range of just 10 or 11C.
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