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Post by Ariete on Feb 14, 2019 15:43:22 GMT -5
I will contribute later, but I'll open this thread now because this is argued about constantly in the shoutbox. From now on this discussion will be had in this thread.
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Post by Lommaren on Feb 14, 2019 15:56:33 GMT -5
Just look at these "beautiful" perpetual "summers" of Half Moon Bay! It just don't stop and it won't stop. Greetings//SMHI
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Post by tij on Feb 14, 2019 15:58:29 GMT -5
Lommaren Swedish summer definitions are better optimized for Sweden's own climate, which is rather different from that of the Bay Area.
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Post by alex992 on Feb 14, 2019 16:07:48 GMT -5
Sweden's summer definition are optimized for nowhere, as they're and arbitrary.
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Post by Babu on Feb 14, 2019 16:23:53 GMT -5
The seasons are defined as follows:
Spring: 7 consecutive days with means >0'C Summer: 5 consecutive days with means ≥10'C Fall: 5 consecutive days with means <10'C Winter: 5 consecutive days with means ≤0'C
The beginning of each season retroactively gets assigned to the first day in the consecutive streak.
The reason SMHI defines seasons to begin with is to get a general sense of whether seasons started early or late, and has a lot to do with everyday people who wonder whether, say, spring arrived early 2014 or not. Unlike USA which has a massive array of different climates, Sweden is relatively homogenous, enough so that a unified definition is relatively manageable.
In Umeå, all of these definitions work well except fall. Spring in Umeå: 7 consecutive days above 0'C tends to coalign neatly with the thawing away of most or all of the snow, and lots of flowers in the flowerbeds, and apart from the outlying freak February in 2015, it's never happened early enough that a major backlash of say 5 or 7 consecutive winter days have come afterwards. Sure, once spring is sprung, there are always going to be backlashes, but if late April sees a massive snow storm it's hardly fair to say spring started after that.
Summer in Umeå: 5 consecutive days with means above 10'C coalings well with everything starting to be green and usually happens mid-May to early June. 5 consecutive "summer days" means a week of sunny days with 15-25'C highs with everybody walking around in shorts and t-shirt and sunbathing all day, and everything is green and everyone's got a summery vibe. Then even if June is really cold and gloomy, it feels more like shitty summer rather than spring because everything has already sprung and you've already got into summer mood.
Fall in Umeå: Here's where it gets tricky. Whereas summer is always going to start with a sunny heatwave, it's probably going to end with a rainy and cloudy low pressure, and so even if there's a week of 13/9'C and rain in late August, it's still going to count as summer because the mean is above 10'C. My suggestion here would be to base the summer definition upon highs rather than lows (maybe 5-7 consecutive days with highs above 15-17'C for the start of summer and conversely 5-7 consecutive days with below 15'C highs for fall.
Winter in Umeå: 5 consecutive days below 0'C usually coalligns well with my perception of winter. Usually it will mark a prolonged snow cover, and lakes will freeze over. Sometimes it does happen prematurely in early November or possibly late October which can then be followed by at least a month of very mild and drizzly fall-like weather. It certainly feels like winter after those 5 "winter days", but after enough mild days, you do forget that it was winter. I would suggest that the winter pronouncement get retroactively removed if, after winter's been declared, there are 10 consecutive days of fall.
The definitions for Sweden as a whole:
Sweden is more homogenous than, say, USA, but due to spanning over 15 latitudes, any national definition is going to be a compromise. For example, most recent years, southernmost Sweden has gone directly from fall to spring without ever having a winter. And conversely, some stations in the far north have some years gone straight from spring to fall without ever having a summer. A national definition would work pretty perfectly in a country like Estonia where all climates are virtually the same. It can't for Sweden; the extreme ends are always going to suffer. Also, the fall definition is ridiculous. It's not summer in October in southernmost Sweden. The definition of a summer day should be based off of highs and not lows. Means work for the other seasons, although preferably, there should be a work-around for winter-less years in the south. I don't know how exactly, though.
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Post by Steelernation on Feb 14, 2019 16:26:05 GMT -5
One word:
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Post by Ariete on Feb 14, 2019 18:42:17 GMT -5
The SMHI's and FMI's temperature-based seasonal classification works for Sweden and Finland if you use them with logic, consistency and common sense. The FMI does that, the SMHI does not.
FMI defines the seasons as following:
Spring: means permanently above >0'C Summer: means permanently above ≥10'C Fall: means permanently below <10'C Winter: means permanently below ≤0'C
You see what the main difference here is between the agencies. Additionally, the observing period for FMI is at least ten days, while SMHI uses five or seven (spring). How SMHI screws all this up is that the first consecutive period of days triggers the season regardless what the weather is after this. The FMI does not, and it takes in account what the weather trend is after this "triggering period". For example it is quite possible that in Southern Finland there's a big thaw in early February where the threshold is reached, but after it turns to well below freezing again. Therefore the "permanently" aspect isn't reached, and spring is not declared. Similarly, Lapland can have a heatwave in early May with 10 days with means say, 10 to 18C. But on the 11th day an arctic blast hits and it snows, and that is not summer weather, so the count starts from zero from the 11th day.
The "permanently" definition is given some leeway, as there can be some days with anomalous weather, but as long as it's within normal bounds, it's ok. For example early last June Turku had two days with some arctic highway frigid weather straight from Svalbard, and the means were 9.9C and 9.7C respectably, but temps recovered quickly, so it was within normal bounds.
People also get too hooked up on that 10C minimum mean. Yes, that's the lowest mean required, and while in theory ten consecutive days with 10C means is considered "summer", in practice it never happens. In 2018 in Turku the first ten days of summer had rounded means like this, in order: 10, 13, 14, 15, 15, 17, 18, 18, 20, 21. So even if you would raise the minimum threshold to 13C, it would postpone summer with one day, if raising it to 15C - 3 days. 10 days with 10C means is something which commonly happens in Iceland, not in Finland.
Similarly, the onset of autumn works quite well when you use permanently means. The SMHI fails here again, while FMI does not. And we don't have to go further back than last year to get a good example. The last ten days of summer in Turku in 2018 had rounded means of: 14, 14, 11, 13, 13, 17, 17, 16, 15, 11. Again, most days were way above the required 10C. The first ten days of autumn had means continuing from that previous 11C like so: 8, 8, 11, 10, 7, 5, 11, 9, 7, 6. This sequence shows that the mean temps are not permanently above 10C, so it cannot be summer anymore. The SMHI again uses the five consecutive days below 10C, so in their definition it's not autumn, because we only had 3 consecutive days. In theory you can be "saved by the bell" indefinitely as long as one of five days are above 10C. This is obviously stupid.
In October last year, starting from the 9th, Turku had a 10-day sequence of these means: 11, 12, 8, 12, 12, 14, 13, 11, 12, 11. Does that mean that it was summer again? No, that ship sailed already on 23 September when autumn "officially started".
Anyway how you view the 10C threshold and would want to raise it, as seen above it makes only a cosmetic difference. AJ1013 and Yahya Sinwar would want to see the threshold at 20C, and it would probably work well in the US. But in Turku where the mean temp in summer is 16.7C, that makes no sense, because it could mean no summer one year.
But maybe the winter definition gets more acceptance? Last year the last week of March in Turdku had means of: 2, -3, -5, -3, -4, -3, -2. That's the end of March, and even after the start of "astronomical spring"! But according to the FMI classification it was winter, which damn correct it was last year. So when did spring start then? Officially on 4 April, with having this sequence: 0, 3, 2, 3, 4, 4, 3, 3, 4, 6. After this Turku didn't have a single day below a 0C mean, hence it was permanently above.
TL;DR: you can do it the right way and you can do it the wrong way. SMHI does it the wrong way.
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Post by Ariete on Feb 14, 2019 19:05:08 GMT -5
While last year was a quite straightforward example, this is not always the case. May-June of 2015 was the coolest since 1996, and the means hovered quite for a long time around 10C, while it was still considered "summer". Similarly, during the winter of 2008-2009 the defining of winter was especially hard, as the mean temp was never permanently below 0C. These examples of course show the potential weakness of the system, but these two are rare anomalies. During the 2000's "summer" has started and ended in Turku quite consistently around 15 May and ending around 23 September. If you would raise the threshold to 13C it would on average snap some days away, but not have a big effect. 15C could be a more changing threshold some years, but that could again mean disproportionately long springs and autumns.
The DMI does not use any official threshold for summer, but unofficially do when low temps are more or less permanently above 10C. IDK what MET NO uses, maybe Nidaros can give some insight.
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Post by irlinit on Feb 14, 2019 19:06:50 GMT -5
How is a 10C mean summer like though. Our Aprils are like that..
No I’m not having that. Even for cold climates in Sweden that seems like a poor system considering the averages. I wouldn’t consider summer starting with 5 days of 15C means
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Post by Ariete on Feb 14, 2019 19:51:45 GMT -5
Typical SMHI meteorologist:
Typical FMI meteorologist:
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Post by Babu on Feb 15, 2019 1:57:50 GMT -5
Only problem with Finland's system is it isn't automized. It requires human judgement.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 2:13:59 GMT -5
arbitrary B.S. the finnish definition seems much better than the swedish, though. the most accurate thing would probably be to make some kind of season threshold based on both temperature and phenology. but what's the point? i don't see why defining meteorological seasons is a must. why not stick to the solar seasons.
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Post by Hiromant on Feb 15, 2019 3:57:08 GMT -5
For comparison, in Estonia four additional inter-seasons have been defined to more accurately describe the transitions around winter and take care of some of the ambiguity.
Spring-winter: the time of melting snow when temps start to crawl above freezing and snow thickness decreases. Early spring: the time after the snow has melted but there's no vegetation activity. Spring: starts with first vegetation activity which coincides with average temperatures permanently staying above 5°C. Summer: average temperature permanently above 13°C. Autumn: average temperature permanently below 13°C. Late autumn: average temperature permanently below 5°C, vegetation activity ceases. Pre-winter: the time after first snow or the first ice day and the start of a permanent snowpack and/or permanently below freezing temperatures. This can drag on for weeks or be skipped entirely if the first snow is permanent. Winter: permanent snowpack and/or below freezing temperatures.
I think a seven day period is used for the "permanent" part but EMHI is quite secretive and I couldn't find a source on that right now. I do remember reading that seasons can flip back and forth or be skipped entirely if warmth or cold persists long enough.
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Post by Donar on Feb 15, 2019 4:09:35 GMT -5
The DWD only defnes the vegetation period phenologically. It starts with the blossom of forsythia and ends with the leaf fall of the common oak.
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Post by Cadeau on Mar 21, 2024 8:15:47 GMT -5
From earlier Shoutbox conversation - - - - -
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Post by Cadeau on Mar 21, 2024 11:11:15 GMT -5
Using my suggested seasonal classification: ≥10°C for spring, ≥18°C for summer, <18°C for autumn, <10°C for winter in long-term daily average.
Spring: Blooming Season (Counting GDD) Summer: Needs cooling (Counting CDD) Autumn: Needs heating (Counting HDD) Winter: Dormant Season
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(Date in MM/DD format)
Paris 11/8-3/20 Winter 3/21-6/4 Spring 6/5-9/9 Summer 9/10-11/7 Autumn
London 11/4-4/8 Winter 4/9-6/29 Spring 6/30-8/25 Summer 8/26-11/3 Autumn
Seoul 11/9-4/2 Winter 4/3-5/15 Spring 5/16-10/2 Summer 10/3-11/8 Autumn
Busan 11/26-3/24 Winter 3/25~5/17 Spring 5/18-10/15 Summer 10/16~11/25 Autumn
Jeju 12/3-3/14 Winter 3/15-5/13 Spring 5/14-10/21 Summer 10/22-12/2 Autumn
Sapporo 10/27-4/27 Winter 4/28-6/22 Spring 6/23-9/18 Summer 9/19-10/26 Autumn
Tokyo: 12/1-3/19 Winter 3/20-5/9 Spring 5/10-10/15 Summer 10/16-11/30 Autumn
Kagoshima 12/25-2/15 Winter 2/16-4/22 Spring 4/23-11/6 Summer 11/7~12/24 Autumn
Naha 12/28-2/22 Spring/Autumn 2/23-12/27 Summer
New York City 11/10-4/5 Winter 4/6-5/20 Spring 5/21-9/28 Summer 9/29-11/9 Autumn
Chicago 10/27-4/16 Winter 4/17-5/27 Spring 5/28-9/20 Summer 9/21-10/26 Autumn
Atlanta 12/2-2/20 Winter 2/21-4/20 Spring 4/21-10/16 Summer 10/17-12/1 Autumn
Seattle 10/30-4/8 Winter 4/9-6/29 Spring 6/30-9/8 Summer 9/9-10/29 Autumn
Los Angeles 11/11-4/24 Spring/Autumn 4/25-11/10 Summer
San Francisco 1/1-12/31 Spring/Autumn
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Post by Ariete on Mar 21, 2024 11:54:03 GMT -5
Turku Artukainen 2015 using >18C
Summer: 2-6 July, 6-12 August, 23-27 August
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