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Post by tommyFL on Mar 21, 2021 20:13:54 GMT -5
According to Köppen, Los Angeles is wet enough to be Mediterranean instead of semi-arid. However, Mount Locke (in the Davis Mountains of West Texas), is still semi-arid despite being much wetter overall. The rationale? LA gets most of its rain during the winter when evaporation is lower, so its minimum precipitation threshold is also lower. Yet Mount Locke is much wetter during its growing season, while persistent drought is the norm in LA for much of the year. Los Angeles: Mount Locke: Let's say there were two climates with the exact same temperatures and annual precipitation, but one had a summer precipitation peak and the other had a winter precipitation peak. Which do you think is more "arid", or do you think it doesn't make any difference?
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Post by knot on Mar 21, 2021 20:24:55 GMT -5
The winter peak climate would be more arid, as summer is (obviously) hotter and so evap rates are much higher. Higher precip in summer mitigates the evap rate, so winter peak climates would be more arid.
No such thing as "arid" in colder climates. Dead, is NOT the same as arid!
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Post by Steelernation on Mar 21, 2021 21:15:41 GMT -5
The wet summer climate. The high evaporation rate in summer means that the precipitation soaks into the ground less than in winter with a low evaporation rate.
Trewartha has a better aridity formula though because it’s more of a sliding scale. Fundamentally no difference between 69% of precipitation in the warm season and 70% yet that’s an extra 140 mm added to the threshold. It’s why you have the idiotic result where if you made Fort Collins wetter in summer, it turns arid.
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Post by caspase8 on Mar 22, 2021 5:41:25 GMT -5
I'd say it depends on the severity of the winter. In a climate with a mild winter (say with a mean of 6C or more) many plants still actively grow in winter and will accordingly use water in the soil. So, more water would be available for plants to use in a wet winter compared to a wet summer climate, since a larger proportion of the soil moisture would evaporate in summer.
If, on the other hand, winters are very cold and most plant life is dormant/dead, a lot of winter moisture will be unused. In these sorts of climates, a winter precipitation peak might correspond with aridity, especially if plant growth is limited in both winter and summer.
I used plant growth as a metric for aridity since plants (or the lack of) are generally what determines how arid a place seems. I voted for summer precipitation peak because most climates with winter wet seasons have mild winters.
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Post by Speagles84 on Mar 22, 2021 6:10:11 GMT -5
Summer precipitation peak, for the same reasons as Steelers said.
EDIT: Whoops read the title wrong, though it said which is LESS arid. Summer precip peak is more arid.
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Post by Ethereal on Mar 22, 2021 7:57:43 GMT -5
I personally associate winter precipitation with semi-aridness. Many semi-arid climates (that verge on Med) in West Asia and Northern Africa have winter rainfall peak. So that seems like the 'norm' to me.
A summer rainfall peak always has some sort of a humid subtropical vibe to me, really.
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Post by 🖕🏿Mörön🖕🏿 on Mar 22, 2021 18:21:59 GMT -5
The wet summer climate. The high evaporation rate in summer means that the precipitation soaks into the ground less than in winter with a low evaporation rate. Trewartha has a better aridity formula though because it’s more of a sliding scale. Fundamentally no difference between 69% of precipitation in the warm season and 70% yet that’s an extra 140 mm added to the threshold. It’s why you have the idiotic result where if you made Fort Collins wetter in summer, it turns arid. Exactly. Angler, you are dead wrong.
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 18:46:54 GMT -5
Sorry, but cold climates can't be "arid". End of story.
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 18:49:15 GMT -5
I personally associate winter precipitation with semi-aridness. Many semi-arid climates (that verge on Med) in West Asia and Northern Africa have winter rainfall peak. So that seems like the 'norm' to me. A summer rainfall peak always has some sort of a humid subtropical vibe to me, really. You've got it completely backwards: the subtropical zone is by far the most arid on Earth, i.e., regions spanning the Horse Latitudes; all the world's proper deserts are found in the subtropical zone; jointly with the torrid zone. Mediterranean precip patterns are more often found in the temperate zone.
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 18:59:14 GMT -5
The wet summer climate. The high evaporation rate in summer means that the precipitation soaks into the ground less than in winter with a low evaporation rate. Trewartha has a better aridity formula though because it’s more of a sliding scale. Fundamentally no difference between 69% of precipitation in the warm season and 70% yet that’s an extra 140 mm added to the threshold. It’s why you have the idiotic result where if you made Fort Collins wetter in summer, it turns arid. With the evaporation rate being so much lower in winter than summer, you'd need a lot less precip to get the "arid" status. And at a certain point, no matter how low the precip, the climate cannot be called…"arid". Say, a winter averaging –11° / –2° C; grass will die regardless of precip, giving a faux-"arid" look. It all depends on the avg temps of said summer peak and winter peak climates in their high-precip months.
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Post by Steelernation on Mar 22, 2021 19:59:13 GMT -5
With the evaporation rate being so much lower in winter than summer, you'd need a lot less precip to get the "arid" status. And at a certain point, no matter how low the precip, the climate cannot be called…"arid". Say, a winter averaging –11° / –2° C; grass will die regardless of precip, giving a faux-"arid" look. It all depends on the avg temps of said summer peak and winter peak climates in their high-precip months. Well obviously when it’s cold grass will be dead, if it’s arid it’ll be dead year round. And annual temps are a big part of every aridity formula. The thread is about for same temps and precipitation. Let’s say 10” falls in the warm season but there’s 20” of evaporation, it would have a lot less impact than if the 10” fell in the cold season when there’s 5” of evaporation. (No clue if these evaporation value make sense but you get the point)
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 20:23:13 GMT -5
Well obviously when it’s cold grass will be dead, if it’s arid it’ll be dead year round. And annual temps are a big part of every aridity formula. The thread is about for same temps and precipitation. Let’s say 10” falls in the warm season but there’s 20” of evaporation, it would have a lot less impact than if the 10” fell in the cold season when there’s 5” of evaporation. (No clue if these evaporation value make sense but you get the point) Not according to the OP's examples. Mount Locke is strikingly cooler than LA, and has more reliable rainfall year-round (an extra 100 mm annually).
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Post by tommyFL on Mar 22, 2021 21:59:33 GMT -5
Well obviously when it’s cold grass will be dead, if it’s arid it’ll be dead year round. And annual temps are a big part of every aridity formula. The thread is about for same temps and precipitation. Let’s say 10” falls in the warm season but there’s 20” of evaporation, it would have a lot less impact than if the 10” fell in the cold season when there’s 5” of evaporation. (No clue if these evaporation value make sense but you get the point) Not according to the OP's examples. Mount Locke is strikingly cooler than LA, and has more reliable rainfall year-round (an extra 100 mm annually). Those are just examples to highlight the absurdity of the Köppen precipitation threshold. The poll question is for climates with equal temperatures and annual precipitation.
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Post by Steelernation on Mar 22, 2021 22:09:38 GMT -5
Not according to the OP's examples. Mount Locke is strikingly cooler than LA, and has more reliable rainfall year-round (an extra 100 mm annually). Even if we used Trewartha’s, LA has a threshold of 117 mm. 117*2 = 234 mm so it’s solidly Mediterranean. Mount Locke has a threshold of 284 mm. 284*2 is 568 mm so it’s solidly semi arid. Yes it’s cooler and has more rain, but there’s similarly warm summers and summer would have a much higher evaporation rate in both places so than mount Locke would have the equivalent of much less rain if it fell mostly in winter.
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 22:16:56 GMT -5
Even if we used Trewartha’s, LA has a threshold of 117 mm. 117*2 = 234 mm so it’s solidly Mediterranean. Mount Locke has a threshold of 284 mm. 284*2 is 568 mm so it’s solidly semi arid. Yes it’s cooler and has more rain, but there’s similarly warm summers and summer would have a much higher evaporation rate in both places so than mount Locke would have the equivalent of much less rain if it fell mostly in winter. With cool avg maxima like 13° C (Locke's winters), there would hardly be any evaporation. LA's winter rain would still evaporate quickly as its "winters" are non-existent.
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 22:24:53 GMT -5
Those are just examples to highlight the absurdity of the Köppen precipitation threshold. The poll question is for climates with equal temperatures and annual precipitation. The same temp patterns as well? As in: same winters and same summers (like both 15° / 28° C in summer vs 1° / 11° C in winter, for instance)? If so, then I'll change my vote.
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Post by Steelernation on Mar 22, 2021 22:29:07 GMT -5
With cool avg maxima like 13° C (Locke's winters), there would hardly be any evaporation. That’s my point. Very little rain is falling when there’s little evaporation but the rain falls when there’s lots of evaporation which is what makes it semi arid. And i don’t think LA’s winters are warm enough for lots of evaporation. 20/9 isn’t that warm.
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Post by Ethereal on Mar 22, 2021 22:32:04 GMT -5
I personally associate winter precipitation with semi-aridness. Many semi-arid climates (that verge on Med) in West Asia and Northern Africa have winter rainfall peak. So that seems like the 'norm' to me. A summer rainfall peak always has some sort of a humid subtropical vibe to me, really. You've got it completely backwards: the subtropical zone is by far the most arid on Earth, i.e., regions spanning the Horse Latitudes; all the world's proper deserts are found in the subtropical zone; jointly with the torrid zone. Mediterranean precip patterns are more often found in the temperate zone. I know, but doesn't the subtropical zone feature Dry-summer climates as well? I was thinking of places like Perth, LA, San Francisco, Turlock, Beirut, Adelaide, Rabat, Casablanca, Athens, Tel Aviv, Sicily (and many parts of the Mediterranean Basin), etc and etc, that look bone dry in the summer and relatively lush in the winter. I do notice that Wet-summer climates look greener in the summer, but in their dry winter they just don't appear as dry as these aforementioned Med areas do in the summer. At least, they're not that striking. And, if anything, they just look 'dead' or bare in the winter. Not dried out. So that's why I think the extreme Mediterranean rainfall pattern takes the cake for being more arid-ish, considering the places I mentioned above. Mediterranean precip patterns in the temperate zone don't seem as pronounced (looking at central/northern Europe and western Canada) as they are in the south and western Asia/Northern Africa/SW USA, but I may be wrong. I think Central Asia is the only region in the temperate zone where winters are rainy and summers mostly dry (like Tashkent), though you can argue that they would border a continental climate.
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 22:34:08 GMT -5
That’s my point. Very little rain is falling when there’s little evaporation but the rain falls when there’s lots of evaporation which is what makes it semi arid. And i don’t think LA’s winters are warm enough for lots of evaporation. 20/9 isn’t that warm. 20° C is a far cry from 13° C. I know from experience that even 17° C is a far cry from 13° C (landscape in Northern NSW vs Central NSW); 20° C is just not a "cool" temp in the slightest, especially by averages. Evap rates climb steeply from about the upper teens °C.
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 22:39:44 GMT -5
Correct, but doesn't the subtropical zone feature both Dry-summer climates as well? I was thinking of places like Perth, LA, San Francisco, Turlock, Beirut, Adelaide, Rabat, Casablanca, Athens, Tel Aviv, Sicily (and many parts of the Mediterranean Basin), etc and etc, that look bone dry in the summer and relatively lush in the winter. Aren't they too in the subtropics? Yes, I am aware that Wet-summer climates look greener in the summer, but in their dry winter they just don't appear as dry as these aforementioned Med cities do in the winter. At least, they're not that striking. And, if anything, they just look 'dead' or bare. Not dried out. Mediterranean precip patterns in the temperate zone don't seem very pronounced (looking at central/northern Europe and western Canada) as they are in the south and western Asia/Northern Africa/SW USA, but I may be wrong. I think Central Asia is the only region in the temperate zone where winters are rainy and summers mostly dry (like Tashkent), though you can argue that they border a continental climate. Of course it does, but summer peaks are simply the hallmark of the subtropics. Note also how those mediterranean climates are usually limited strictly to the mid or upper thirties parallels (or even forties!), as opposed to the deep subtropics i.e., the twenties to lower thirties parallels. And why even mention Canada? That's entirely above the temperate zone, let alone the subtropics! The textbook subtropical zone spans only the 23.5th–35th parallels.
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