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Post by Ethereal on Mar 22, 2021 22:52:23 GMT -5
Correct, but doesn't the subtropical zone feature both Dry-summer climates as well? I was thinking of places like Perth, LA, San Francisco, Turlock, Beirut, Adelaide, Rabat, Casablanca, Athens, Tel Aviv, Sicily (and many parts of the Mediterranean Basin), etc and etc, that look bone dry in the summer and relatively lush in the winter. Aren't they too in the subtropics? Yes, I am aware that Wet-summer climates look greener in the summer, but in their dry winter they just don't appear as dry as these aforementioned Med cities do in the winter. At least, they're not that striking. And, if anything, they just look 'dead' or bare. Not dried out. Mediterranean precip patterns in the temperate zone don't seem very pronounced (looking at central/northern Europe and western Canada) as they are in the south and western Asia/Northern Africa/SW USA, but I may be wrong. I think Central Asia is the only region in the temperate zone where winters are rainy and summers mostly dry (like Tashkent), though you can argue that they border a continental climate. Of course it does, but summer peaks are simply the hallmark of the subtropics. Note also how those mediterranean climates are usually limited strictly to the mid or upper thirties parallels (or even forties!), as opposed to the deep subtropics i.e., the twenties to lower thirties parallels. And why even mention Canada? That's entirely above the temperate zone, let alone the subtropics! The textbook subtropical zone spans only the 23.5th–35th parallels. I would've assumed that, climate wise, southwestern Canada is in the "temperate" zone. I did not insinuate that anywhere even near Canada is in the subtropics though - Heck, I'm the one that's against placing even southernmost places like Atlanta and Myrtle Beach in the subtropical zone (although, yes, technically they are in that zone), but that's a whole different topic, and that it has more to do with their climate rather than their geographical 'genetics'. |
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 22:56:45 GMT -5
I would've assumed that, climate wise, southwestern Canada is in the "temperate" zone. I did not insinuate that anywhere even near Canada is in the subtropics though - Heck, I'm the one that's against placing even southernmost places like Atlanta and Myrtle Beach in the subtropical zone (although, yes, technically they are in that zone), but that's a whole different topic, and that it has more to do with their climate rather than their geographical 'genetics'. Yeah, but nowhere near the subtropics. What I meant to say was "entirely above the subtropical/temperate border"—wording error on my part. |
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Post by tommyFL on Mar 22, 2021 22:58:20 GMT -5
Those are just examples to highlight the absurdity of the Köppen precipitation threshold. The poll question is for climates with equal temperatures and annual precipitation. The same temp patterns as well? As in: same winters and same summers (like both 15° / 28° C in summer vs 1° / 11° C in winter, for instance)? If so, then I'll change my vote. I thought the question was pretty clear. |
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 23:02:43 GMT -5
I thought the question was pretty clear. The examples in your OP threw me off—not even remotely similar temps nor temp patterns. Guess I gotta think outside the box a little more. |
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Post by knot on Mar 22, 2021 23:12:04 GMT -5
Come to think of it…I can't really vote for either, because "same temps" can mean different results. For instance, 30° C summers vs 11° C winters, would yield completely different results to 25° C summers vs 16° C winters. The former would benefit more greatly from summer rain; whereas the latter from winter rain.
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Post by tommyFL on Mar 22, 2021 23:25:16 GMT -5
Same temps in all seasons...
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Post by knot on Mar 28, 2021 0:33:22 GMT -5
…So yeah, decided to keep my vote on winter peak = more arid.
Winter can skimp on rain with little to no consequences (and colder winters just kill the grass anyways), whereas summer just can't afford to skimp on it. You will never see winter landscapes akin to truly torrid summer landscapes—aridity is just not possible at lower temps.
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Post by 🖕🏿Mörön🖕🏿 on Mar 28, 2021 0:45:17 GMT -5
Changed my vote to "winter peak".
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Post by srfoskey on Mar 28, 2021 1:09:52 GMT -5
The Texas Panhandle and northern Central Valley of California have similar average temperatures and annual precipitation values, but the Texas Panhandle looks much drier. So I think the answer is places with summer precipitation peaks are more arid.
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Post by tommyFL on Mar 28, 2021 1:33:00 GMT -5
The Texas Panhandle and northern Central Valley of California have similar average temperatures and annual precipitation values, but the Texas Panhandle looks much drier. So I think the answer is places with summer precipitation peaks are more arid. Are you sure? CA can give the illusion of being less dry due to extensive irrigation. Somewhere between Colusa and Yuba City, CAJust south of Amarillo, TX |
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Post by Steelernation on Mar 28, 2021 20:39:35 GMT -5
The CA place looks less arid. All that grass would probably be green in winter, the place looks more like a grassland than the scrubland in the Texas place. |
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Post by Donar on Mar 29, 2021 7:54:30 GMT -5
I think it depends on the winter temperatures. If winters are warm enough for plants being able to grow, a winter rainfall peak would be more suitable than a summer peak because of less evaporation. But if winters are too cold, a summer peak would be better. Though I guess there are few borderline semi-arid places with cold & wet winters and very dry summers (Nevada?), most mediterranean climates with a somewhat cold winters have ample rainfall stretching into the growing season, making them not semi-arid anyway.
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Post by klimkin199 on May 15, 2021 14:46:48 GMT -5
Definitely Los Angeles is more arid, beacuse it has less rainfall.
But aridity doesn't depend from precipitation patterns.
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Post by Cadeau on Apr 11, 2024 14:56:49 GMT -5
Personally, I prefer to use revised Koppen & Trewartha fusion threshold. I'll just copy my notes from what I wrote years ago on my private forum. New Idea Formula: (T*20)+(3*P) T= Annual Mean Temperature P= Precipitation in High Sun/Longer Days (APR to SEP in the Northern Hemisphere, OCT to MAR in the Southern Hemisphere)
| 0% | 10% | 20% | 30% | 40% | 50% | 60% | 70% | 80% | 90% | 100% | | -15°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | -14°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 20 | | -13°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 10 | 40 | | -12°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 30 | 60 | | -11°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 20 | 50 | 80 | | -10°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 10 | 40 | 70 | 100 | | -9°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 30 | 60 | 90 | 120 | | -8°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 20 | 50 | 80 | 110 | 140 | | -7°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 10 | 40 | 70 | 100 | 130 | 160 | | -6°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 30 | 60 | 90 | 120 | 150 | 180 | | -5°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 20 | 50 | 80 | 110 | 140 | 170 | 200 | | -4°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 10 | 40 | 70 | 100 | 130 | 160 | 190 | 220 | | -3°C | 0 | 0 | 0 | 30 | 60 | 90 | 120 | 150 | 180 | 210 | 240 | | -2°C | 0 | 0 | 20 | 50 | 80 | 110 | 140 | 170 | 200 | 230 | 260 | | -1°C | 0 | 10 | 40 | 70 | 100 | 130 | 160 | 190 | 220 | 250 | 280 | | 0°C | 0 | 30 | 60 | 90 | 120 | 150 | 180 | 210 | 240 | 270 | 300 | | 1°C | 20 | 50 | 80 | 110 | 140 | 170 | 200 | 230 | 260 | 290 | 320 | | 2°C | 40 | 70 | 100 | 130 | 160 | 190 | 220 | 250 | 280 | 310 | 340 | | 3°C | 60 | 90 | 120 | 150 | 180 | 210 | 240 | 270 | 300 | 330 | 360 | | 4°C | 80 | 110 | 140 | 170 | 200 | 230 | 260 | 290 | 320 | 350 | 380 | | 5°C | 100 | 130 | 160 | 190 | 220 | 250 | 280 | 310 | 340 | 370 | 400 | | 6°C | 120 | 150 | 180 | 210 | 240 | 270 | 300 | 330 | 360 | 390 | 420 | | 7°C | 140 | 170 | 200 | 230 | 260 | 290 | 320 | 350 | 380 | 410 | 440 | | 8°C | 160 | 190 | 220 | 250 | 280 | 310 | 340 | 370 | 400 | 430 | 460 | | 9°C | 180 | 210 | 240 | 270 | 300 | 330 | 360 | 390 | 420 | 450 | 480 | | 10°C | 200 | 230 | 260 | 290 | 320 | 350 | 380 | 410 | 440 | 470 | 500 | | 11°C | 220 | 250 | 280 | 310 | 340 | 370 | 400 | 430 | 460 | 490 | 520 | | 12°C | 240 | 270 | 300 | 330 | 360 | 390 | 420 | 450 | 480 | 510 | 540 | | 13°C | 260 | 290 | 320 | 350 | 380 | 410 | 440 | 470 | 500 | 530 | 560 | | 14°C | 280 | 310 | 340 | 370 | 400 | 430 | 460 | 490 | 520 | 550 | 580 | | 15°C | 300 | 330 | 360 | 390 | 420 | 450 | 480 | 510 | 540 | 570 | 600 | | 16°C | 320 | 350 | 380 | 410 | 440 | 470 | 500 | 530 | 560 | 590 | 620 | | 17°C | 340 | 370 | 400 | 430 | 460 | 490 | 520 | 550 | 580 | 610 | 640 | | 18°C | 360 | 390 | 420 | 450 | 480 | 510 | 540 | 570 | 600 | 630 | 660 | | 19°C | 380 | 410 | 440 | 470 | 500 | 530 | 560 | 590 | 620 | 650 | 680 | | 20°C | 400 | 430 | 460 | 490 | 520 | 550 | 580 | 610 | 640 | 670 | 700 | | 21°C | 420 | 450 | 480 | 510 | 540 | 570 | 600 | 630 | 660 | 690 | 720 | | 22°C | 440 | 470 | 500 | 530 | 560 | 590 | 620 | 650 | 680 | 710 | 740 | | 23°C | 460 | 490 | 520 | 550 | 580 | 610 | 640 | 670 | 700 | 730 | 760 | | 24°C | 480 | 510 | 540 | 570 | 600 | 630 | 660 | 690 | 720 | 750 | 780 | | 25°C | 500 | 530 | 560 | 590 | 620 | 650 | 680 | 710 | 740 | 770 | 800 | | 26°C | 520 | 550 | 580 | 610 | 640 | 670 | 700 | 730 | 760 | 790 | 820 | | 27°C | 540 | 570 | 600 | 630 | 660 | 690 | 720 | 750 | 780 | 810 | 840 | | 28°C | 560 | 590 | 620 | 650 | 680 | 710 | 740 | 770 | 800 | 830 | 860 | | 29°C | 580 | 610 | 640 | 670 | 700 | 730 | 760 | 790 | 820 | 850 | 880 | | 30°C | 600 | 630 | 660 | 690 | 720 | 750 | 780 | 810 | 840 | 870 | 900 |
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Lived:
Residence: