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Post by grega94 on Nov 2, 2017 9:01:32 GMT -5
So it's a pretty well known fact that mountains create rain shadows, and like wise most people think that mountains can block cold air masses just like those rain clouds. A lot of people speculate that the pacific northwest is so mild because the Cascades block the Cold air from reaching the coast. Likewise many people blame that the East coast is so cold because it lacks a large/tall mountain chain to block the cold fronts, but is that really the case. So I wanted to test this theory and look for places that are the opposite of the North American situation. I first went to look for a place on the eastern side of a continent that had a mountain chain running right along the coast, and I did, in Northeast Asia/Korea Peninsula. And yet it's even colder then the eastern US. City (Latitude): coldest mean temp Northeast Asia Nakhodka (42°49′N): -9.3C (15.3F) Haeju (38°02′N): -4.8C (23.4F) Incheon (37°29′N): -2.1C (28.2F) Busan (35°10′N): 3.2C (37.8F) Eastern US Boston (42°21′29″N): -1.7C (29.0F) Ocean City (38°23′29″N): 3C (37.5F) Virginia Beach (36.8506°N): 4.65C (40.4F) So as you can see northeast Asia is colder than the eastern US, and yet NE Asia is sheltered by mountains and the Korean peninsula has the yellow sea to the west of it which should give it even more maritime influence than the eastern US, yet it somehow manages to still be colder. Also looking at the western US, inland cities are significantly colder then their costal counter parts, but if you look at elevation and match them up from both sides of mountain ranges they are actually not that far off. Spokane Valley (596m): -0.5C (31.1F) vs. Greenwater (518m): -0.2C (31.3F) Kennewick (124m): 1.25C (34.2F) vs. North Bend (134m): 1C (34.5F) So although eastern Washington is overall colder then western WA, but when you actually match both places according to elevation they have the same exact winter temperatures. Even record lows are not that far off. So do you still think that mountains block the cold? If so prove it. Perhaps the mountains have to be of a certain height to block the cold and keep in the warmth. |
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Post by Babu on Nov 2, 2017 11:21:55 GMT -5
Yes. It blocks cold as well as heat, which is why Norway is much much warmer than Sweden in winter, and cooler in summer, and Milano warmer than Zagreb.
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Post by Lommaren on Nov 2, 2017 12:38:59 GMT -5
(I corrected to Zagreb from "Zagrab" in Baba's post and hoped it wouldn't show up but nvm  ) What makes the Asian east coast special is that there's no Hudson Bay to temper the Siberian High, it's completely unopposed in early winter, and that crucial month of November does the US east coast tons of good in preventing severe cold outbreaks especially early on. The Great Lakes also play their part in moderating the air somehwat. Each of the lakes have a limited influence by themselves, but as a combined force they have  |
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Post by Lommaren on Nov 2, 2017 12:57:09 GMT -5
Though if you live on the Western side of the Great Lakes, The Arctic outbreaks are much stronger. (The Dakotas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, etc) Which is kind of natural given they're at the farthest point from an ocean and aren't facing water to the west nearby contrary to say Cleveland. |
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Post by grega94 on Nov 2, 2017 14:14:49 GMT -5
Yes. It blocks cold as well as heat, which is why Norway is much much warmer than Sweden in winter, and cooler in summer, and Milano warmer than Zagreb. Looking at Scandinavia it seems like you are correct. Bergen: 2.2C (36F) Oslo: -2.9C (26.8F) Stockholm: -1.7C (28.9F) But couldn't the change in temp be also explained partially because Oslo and Stockholm are further away from the ocean? For instance look at these cities that have no mountains in between them and are also all at sea level, and there is still a trend of getting colder, but on a smaller scale. Ocean Shores: 5.5C (42F) Aberdeen: 4.55C (40.2F) Olympia: 3.55C (38.4F) |
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Post by grega94 on Nov 3, 2017 14:48:57 GMT -5
It seems like most mountain ranges that I can find block warm marine influences from penetrating inland, but it's rare to find the opposite where it blocks the cold from entering, the best example I found so far is Crimea. Western Crimea is colder than the eastern part that is sheltered by mountains. Sevastopol: 1.7C (35.1F) Yalta: 4.0C (39.2F) |
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Post by Cadeau on Nov 3, 2017 17:16:49 GMT -5
In the Korean Peninsula, Sokcho has a good example of this phenomenon, Taebaek mountains are blocking severe cold airmass coming from the northwest most of the time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokcho#Climate Sokcho / Latitude: 38.2°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -0.3°C en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul#Climate Seoul / Latitude: 37.6°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -2.4°C |
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Post by Lommaren on Nov 3, 2017 17:34:11 GMT -5
In the Korean Peninsula, Sokcho has a good example of this phenomenon, Taebaek mountains are blocking severe cold airmass coming from the northwest most of the time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokcho#Climate Sokcho / Latitude: 38.2°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -0.3°C en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul#Climate Seoul / Latitude: 37.6°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -2.4°C I still find it quite amusing how relatively non-severe Seoul's all-time record lows are considering how strong the Siberian High really is. Granted it's on the coast at 37N so a very cold winter for that, but still I'd expect -25C to occur once every two decades with such a brutal monster raging nearby  |
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Post by grega94 on Nov 3, 2017 18:20:57 GMT -5
In the Korean Peninsula, Sokcho has a good example of this phenomenon, Taebaek mountains are blocking severe cold airmass coming from the northwest most of the time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokcho#Climate Sokcho / Latitude: 38.2°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -0.3°C en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul#Climate Seoul / Latitude: 37.6°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -2.4°C Hmm that's interesting, so eastern Korea is warmer than western Korea? |
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Post by Cadeau on Nov 3, 2017 19:58:56 GMT -5
In the Korean Peninsula, Sokcho has a good example of this phenomenon, Taebaek mountains are blocking severe cold airmass coming from the northwest most of the time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokcho#Climate Sokcho / Latitude: 38.2°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -0.3°C en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul#Climate Seoul / Latitude: 37.6°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -2.4°C I still find it quite amusing how relatively non-severe Seoul's all-time record lows are considering how strong the Siberian High really is. Granted it's on the coast at 37N so a very cold winter for that, but still I'd expect -25C to occur once every two decades with such a brutal monster raging nearby -20°C is not unusual in higher altitude location during the coldest wave once or twice a decade. Like many other East Asian climates, they're rather abnormally having low averages compared to the similar latitudes on the other side of the earth due to the Siberian High. If the Yellow Sea were filled with landmass completely, they would probably beat the record lows to those eastern half of North America (just guessing). |
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Post by Cadeau on Nov 3, 2017 20:04:50 GMT -5
In the Korean Peninsula, Sokcho has a good example of this phenomenon, Taebaek mountains are blocking severe cold airmass coming from the northwest most of the time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokcho#Climate Sokcho / Latitude: 38.2°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -0.3°C en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul#Climate Seoul / Latitude: 37.6°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -2.4°C Hmm that's interesting, so eastern Korea is warmer than western Korea? Yes. those small portions east of the mountain ranges have warmer winters and cooler summers, maybe the factor that combined with proximity to the sea makes more significant as an addition. |
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Post by alex992 on Nov 6, 2017 11:18:50 GMT -5
In the Korean Peninsula, Sokcho has a good example of this phenomenon, Taebaek mountains are blocking severe cold airmass coming from the northwest most of the time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokcho#Climate Sokcho / Latitude: 38.2°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -0.3°C en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul#Climate Seoul / Latitude: 37.6°N / Coldest Monthly Mean Temp: -2.4°C I still find it quite amusing how relatively non-severe Seoul's all-time record lows are considering how strong the Siberian High really is. Granted it's on the coast at 37N so a very cold winter for that, but still I'd expect -25C to occur once every two decades with such a brutal monster raging nearby The Siberian High is actually what keeps the climate stable. |
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Post by The Gior from Ipanema on Nov 6, 2017 12:44:48 GMT -5
At least one good thing is that South Korea gets dry and relatively sunny winters. Sun plays a huge role in how a winter feels, and with the low humidity I bet the winters feel much milder than they look on paper. 5C on a sunny day with 45% humidity feels completely different than 5C on a cloudy day with cold rain and 90% humidity
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Post by Ethereal on Apr 16, 2022 23:00:46 GMT -5
Yes. It blocks cold as well as heat, which is why Norway is much much warmer than Sweden in winter, and cooler in summer, and Milano warmer than Zagreb. Really? The Great Dividing Range is the reason why Sydney (particularly the inland) records very high temperatures due to the foehn effect. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2022 23:10:37 GMT -5
It's the Siberian High that makes it so cold and dry during winter, then the East Asian Monsoon makes things warm and rainy during summer.
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Post by firebird1988 on Apr 17, 2022 10:17:31 GMT -5
So it's a pretty well known fact that mountains create rain shadows, and like wise most people think that mountains can block cold air masses just like those rain clouds. A lot of people speculate that the pacific northwest is so mild because the Cascades block the Cold air from reaching the coast. Likewise many people blame that the East coast is so cold because it lacks a large/tall mountain chain to block the cold fronts, but is that really the case. So I wanted to test this theory and look for places that are the opposite of the North American situation. I first went to look for a place on the eastern side of a continent that had a mountain chain running right along the coast, and I did, in Northeast Asia/Korea Peninsula. And yet it's even colder then the eastern US. City (Latitude): coldest mean temp Northeast Asia Nakhodka (42°49′N): -9.3C (15.3F) Haeju (38°02′N): -4.8C (23.4F) Incheon (37°29′N): -2.1C (28.2F) Busan (35°10′N): 3.2C (37.8F) Eastern US Boston (42°21′29″N): -1.7C (29.0F) Ocean City (38°23′29″N): 3C (37.5F) Virginia Beach (36.8506°N): 4.65C (40.4F) So as you can see northeast Asia is colder than the eastern US, and yet NE Asia is sheltered by mountains and the Korean peninsula has the yellow sea to the west of it which should give it even more maritime influence than the eastern US, yet it somehow manages to still be colder. Also looking at the western US, inland cities are significantly colder then their costal counter parts, but if you look at elevation and match them up from both sides of mountain ranges they are actually not that far off. Spokane Valley (596m): -0.5C (31.1F) vs. Greenwater (518m): -0.2C (31.3F) Kennewick (124m): 1.25C (34.2F) vs. North Bend (134m): 1C (34.5F) So although eastern Washington is overall colder then western WA, but when you actually match both places according to elevation they have the same exact winter temperatures. Even record lows are not that far off. So do you still think that mountains block the cold? If so prove it. Perhaps the mountains have to be of a certain height to block the cold and keep in the warmth. Prevailing wind direction plays a role as well, I think you're forgetting that |
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Post by Metsfan257 on Apr 17, 2022 16:04:10 GMT -5
Yes. It blocks cold as well as heat, which is why Norway is much much warmer than Sweden in winter, and cooler in summer, and Milano warmer than Zagreb. Really? The Great Dividing Range is the reason why Sydney (particularly the inland) records very high temperatures due to the foehn effect. Indeed. Likewise here, the Appalachians do not block heat but rather encourage it on their leeward slope (ie the East Coast) due to föhn effects. The hottest heat waves here come with hot, dry, downsloping westerly winds. I sit on the coast at 41N, and I have hotter record high temperatures than the region to the immediate west of the Appalachians at my same latitude. |
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Post by firebird1988 on Apr 17, 2022 20:29:42 GMT -5
Really? The Great Dividing Range is the reason why Sydney (particularly the inland) records very high temperatures due to the foehn effect. Indeed. Likewise here, the Appalachians do not block heat but rather encourage it on their leeward slope (ie the East Coast) due to föhn effects. The hottest heat waves here come with hot, dry, downsloping westerly winds. I sit on the coast at 41N, and I have hotter record high temperatures than the region to the immediate west of the Appalachians at my same latitude. Part of that is function of elevation, Des Moines and Omaha are certainly hotter in summer than NYC |
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Post by alex992 on Apr 18, 2022 16:05:11 GMT -5
Indeed. Likewise here, the Appalachians do not block heat but rather encourage it on their leeward slope (ie the East Coast) due to föhn effects. The hottest heat waves here come with hot, dry, downsloping westerly winds. I sit on the coast at 41N, and I have hotter record high temperatures than the region to the immediate west of the Appalachians at my same latitude. Part of that is function of elevation, Des Moines and Omaha are certainly hotter in summer than NYC Not really, mean temps run around the same. Mean temps of JJA: Omaha: 75.9 F (24.4 C) Des Moines: 74.0 F (23.3 C) NYC: 75.2 F (24.0 C) Of course, NYC would run notably cooler without UHI, but still. EDIT: Just noticed you were likely referring to record highs, in which case you are correct. My bad. |
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Post by firebird1988 on Apr 18, 2022 17:13:22 GMT -5
Part of that is function of elevation, Des Moines and Omaha are certainly hotter in summer than NYC Not really, mean temps run around the same. Mean temps of JJA: Omaha: 75.9 F (24.4 C) Des Moines: 74.0 F (23.3 C) NYC: 75.2 F (24.0 C) Of course, NYC would run notably cooler without UHI, but still. EDIT: Just noticed you were likely referring to record highs, in which case you are correct. My bad. Both record highs AND average highs. Average high in NYC in July is 85°F, 87°F in Des Moines and 89°F in Omaha |
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