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Post by southathens on Feb 14, 2024 21:04:27 GMT -5
So I have been researching the mildest winters in mainland Europe and I believe it must ultimately be between Monemvasia in SE Greece and Almeria in SE Spain. I am basing my hypothesis on 4 main indicators: 1. Record low temperatures 2. Mean of absolute minimum temperatures 3. Winter average minimum temperatures 4. 24 hour average winter temperatures For my comparison I am using for Almeria the IFAPA station in Downtown Almeria and for Monemvasia the WMO station. Both stations are next to the sea at very low altitudes. I have calculated below the climate normals for the same period that we have freely available data for both cities. The Almeria data can be found here: www.juntadeandalucia.es/agri...tacion/4/2#hisWhile the Monemvasia data here: meteosearch.meteo.gr/The most notable difference between these two meteorological stations is that the Almeria station is a passive fanless station while Monemvasia is a fan aspirated one. So expect some positive bias for Almeria's maximum temperatures.   Bear in mind that the above average monthly Ts are simple average Ts not 24 hour average Ts. From a first glance we see higher continentality in Almeria when it comes to average minimum Ts (which is to be expected due to Spain's huge landmass) and much milder average min Ts in Monemvasia. Other than that both cities are pretty close.  What do you guys think? |
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Post by Steelernation on Feb 14, 2024 23:12:59 GMT -5
When you only include 2007-2024, of course they’ll have the mildest winters in Europe.
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Post by tommyFL on Feb 14, 2024 23:33:25 GMT -5
None of the above, since Gibraltar and even Cadiz are warmer in winter.
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Post by southathens on Feb 15, 2024 0:09:46 GMT -5
None of the above, since Gibraltar and even Cadiz are warmer in winter. How do you know? Do you have the data for the above period? I couldn't find any stations with freely available data. Cadiz historically has dropped to -1C and Tarifa just off Gibraltar has dropped to -3.3C. Almeria has never recorded frost so its the safest option. I am using 4 indicators to determine winter mildness |
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Post by southathens on Feb 15, 2024 0:11:50 GMT -5
When you only include 2007-2024, of course they’ll have the mildest winters in Europe. I can't compare any other years since Monemvasia started operation in 2007 |
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Post by Steelernation on Feb 15, 2024 0:12:17 GMT -5
How do you know? Do you have the data for the above period? I couldn't find any stations with freely available data. Cadiz has dropped to -1C and Tarifa just off Gibraltar has dropped to -3.3C. I am using 4 indicators to determine winter mildness With only 17 years of data no wonder the records are high. Very likely these places have gotten below freezing in the 1900s |
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Post by southathens on Feb 15, 2024 0:17:30 GMT -5
How do you know? Do you have the data for the above period? I couldn't find any stations with freely available data. Cadiz has dropped to -1C and Tarifa just off Gibraltar has dropped to -3.3C. I am using 4 indicators to determine winter mildness With only 17 years of data no wonder the records are high. Very likely these places have gotten below freezing in the 1900s Almeria has never recorded a frost close to a century that we have data. It's milder in that respect to anything in the Iberian Peninsula. Likewise Monemvasia has never accumulated snow at least for 80+ years from what we know historically. It's a pity we didn't have a station for Monemvasia back then. |
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Post by desiccatedi85 on Feb 15, 2024 0:40:37 GMT -5
Of these options Monemvasia is (barely) milder in winter, average winter temp of 56.3ºF versus 56.0ºF in Almería.
As for which climate is better, well, Monemvasia is of course, because it has much more reliable rains and is truly Mediterranean while Almería is a desert.
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Post by southathens on Feb 15, 2024 6:36:08 GMT -5
Of these options Monemvasia is (barely) milder in winter, average winter temp of 56.3ºF versus 56.0ºF in Almería.
As for which climate is better, well, Monemvasia is of course, because it has much more reliable rains and is truly Mediterranean while Almería is a desert.
Almeria is not a true desert. It remains BSh hot semi-arid both from this station and the AP with long term data. It's just at the lower end of BSh. Average winter Ts is only one indicator of mildness. Far more important I believe are absolute mean min Ts and record low Ts. That's where we see the true resistance to cold. Monemvasia seems to have more maritime influences and this might be key when it comes to winter mildness. But it's a close call |
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Post by Marcelo on Feb 15, 2024 9:34:14 GMT -5
It's Gibraltar, man.
The place is basically an asphalt-filled appendix located close to Southernmost Europe.
It even struggles to get below 8C on a yearly basis.
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Post by southathens on Feb 15, 2024 9:38:55 GMT -5
It's Gibraltar, man. The place is basically an asphalt-filled appendix located close to Southernmost Europe. It even struggles to get below 8C on a yearly basis. Its not Gibraltar. Tarifa which is the Southernmost place in mainland Europe went down to -3.3C in as recent as 2005. No reliable data on Gibraltar as many breaks in its time series |
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Post by Kaleetan on Feb 15, 2024 9:48:24 GMT -5
Monemvasia for not being a desert.
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Post by Marcelo on Feb 15, 2024 10:00:23 GMT -5
It's Gibraltar, man. The place is basically an asphalt-filled appendix located close to Southernmost Europe. It even struggles to get below 8C on a yearly basis. Its not Gibraltar. Tarifa which is the Southernmost place in mainland Europe went down to -3.3C in as recent as 2005. No reliable data on Gibraltar as many breaks in its time series Yes, it's Gibraltar, don't be capricious.
It recorded 1.0C that day (Jan 27, 2005). During the same event, Almería AP got to 0.9C. January averages above 13C. Yearly lows are also awfully mild, too.
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Post by southathens on Feb 15, 2024 10:07:03 GMT -5
Its not Gibraltar. Tarifa which is the Southernmost place in mainland Europe went down to -3.3C in as recent as 2005. No reliable data on Gibraltar as many breaks in its time series Yes, it's Gibraltar, don't be capricious.
It recorded 1.0C that day (Jan 27, 2005). During the same event, Almería AP got to 0.9C. January averages above 13C. Yearly lows are also awfully mild, too.
Almeria AP was down to 0.1C the 0.9C was in the IFAPA City station Both Gibraltar and Almeria have dipped lower than the 1.6C of Monemvasia. The Iberian Peninsula has a long history of strong cold snaps and minimums dip due to the continentality of the huge landmass. On the other hand Monemvasia is really maritime and struggles to get below 6C almost every year. Btw link me the 1C of Gibraltar. I can't find it anywhere. It's highly unlikely it stayed above 0C when Tarifa even more south was down to -3.3C on the same day |
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Post by Benfxmth on Feb 15, 2024 10:14:16 GMT -5
Unfair comparison again, if you use the same 2007-2024 POR as OP presented for Gibraltar and Tarifa, its record low is 3.5°C on Jan 26, 2007 and Tarifa's is 2.0°C from Feb 25, 2013. Proof (for the latter):   |
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Post by southathens on Feb 15, 2024 10:17:11 GMT -5
Unfair comparison again, if you use the same 2007-2024 POR as OP presented for Gibraltar and Tarifa, its record low is 3.5°C on Jan 26, 2007 and Tarifa's is 2.0°C from Feb 25, 2013. Proof (for the latter): Yeah but no. All these sites including the above have different values from the official WMO stations from AEMET or Met Office data. We need direct confirmation from the national authorities. Bear in mind that especially Gibraltar has huge breaks in its timeseries. |
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Post by southathens on Feb 15, 2024 10:24:00 GMT -5
And btw the above average winter Ts are simple means. We need full 24hours winter Ts to establish mildness. Given that Monemvasia is more maritime its usually around 0.3C higher than its simple average. We need to see what's going on with Tarifa and Gibraltar in terms of 24hours average winter Ts and I can't find these data anywhere unless ordered directly by AEMET or Metoffice. That's why I am comparing with Almeria where I am fairly confident on its data and we have also the 24hour average Ts from the IFAPA station.
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Post by Benfxmth on Feb 15, 2024 10:26:58 GMT -5
Unfair comparison again, if you use the same 2007-2024 POR as OP presented for Gibraltar and Tarifa, its record low is 3.5°C on Jan 26, 2007 and Tarifa's is 2.0°C from Feb 25, 2013. Proof (for the latter): Yeah but no. All these sites including the above have different values from the official WMO stations from AEMET or Met Office data. We need direct confirmation from the national authorities. Bear in mind that especially Gibraltar has huge breaks in its timeseries. Um no, this is the one and only AEMET (station ID 6001) site in the case of Tarifa, you yourself posted that record low from 2005 earlier;  |
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Post by southathens on Feb 15, 2024 10:38:58 GMT -5
Yeah but no. All these sites including the above have different values from the official WMO stations from AEMET or Met Office data. We need direct confirmation from the national authorities. Bear in mind that especially Gibraltar has huge breaks in its timeseries. Um no, this is the one and only AEMET (station ID 6001) site in the case of Tarifa, you yourself posted that record low from 2005 earlier; And yeah how does that prove anything about the 24hours average Ts? And also if Tarifa went down to -3.3C its highly unlikely Gibraltar was over 0C. The only place in Iberia reliably over 0C is Almeria. Almeria is the best and strongest candidate that covers all indicators of winter mildness |
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Post by southathens on Feb 15, 2024 10:50:31 GMT -5
Oh and don't forget these are passive stations both in Tarifa and Gibraltar. By definition they will have a positive bias of maximum Ts (especially in sunny days) compared to the fan aspiration of Monemvasia. This will inevitably positively bias winter averages in both stations. Only solution is fan aspirated stations in all locations. Much more reliable.
Anyhow the most reliable comparison is with the Almeria IFAPA station. We can cross check all data directly from IFAPA despite being a passive station itself which we need to take also into account.
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