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Post by paddy234 on Aug 20, 2023 11:00:22 GMT -5
15C is not cold rain for me, just cool to mild (nights can be humid in such conditions with 12C lows ukhhh, but maybe I'm just humid intolerant). What feels cold to me is when a huge high pressure system over NSW in winter brings temps down to 0C in the mornings. The air feels bone chilling and that coldness would linger on to midday (and these can affect southeast QLD). So I can give you that.  An extratropical cyclone (ECL) giving us highs of 14C with "cold" rain is a subtropical luxury compared to such mornings under a southerly flowing high pressure system. Besides, unlike Perth, Sydney's winters are mostly sunny and dry due to the foehn effect and the subtropical ridge directing clear weather over us (despite the odd ECL event here and there). Speaking of "as described by BOM publications", well, according to BOM, Perth is in the subtropical zone, but I assume you don't count it as such? What exactly is "warm temperate" though? Because even NYC and Washington DC can be shoved under it. But my question was, would you agree that Sydney is at least botanically subtropical? P.S. Gold Coast is still a bit cool in winter for the water and beaches. I've only been there in early autumn and midspring. ^^ its a damn sight warmer than Cronulla Beach ( or Cottesloe ) in the winter months... thats for sure.... honestly you blokes... go and spend a winter in the real subtropics and come back with some real world experience/observations... just sayin'.... Oh and although Perth is close/bordeline 'subtropics' by temperature means, the climate patterns, ie the winter rains and frontal westerlies are hard to reconcile with the subject matter in an AU context... and that is generally about the line where the rains are warmer summer based ( yes, like Sydney and surrounds except Sydney still gets a reasonable amount of cooler winter rains as represented by the May-August means at the Botanic Gardens... 434.9mm av over those 4 months.... doesn't sound too bright and sunny to me....   Oh and Sydney 'botanically subtropical' ? so which part of Sydney are we talkin' about here ? As discussed on other pages, the Harbour, Liverpool, Manly Beach, Penrith, Bondi, Camden, the Airport....? Big place with lots of different climate characterists and botanical chartacteristics... ie Jacaranda's line the main drag in Camden, but no mangos or bananas out there nor indeed any subtropical species... naturally, as the Nepean/Hawkesbury Valleys are frosty places in winter at low altitude ( ie Camden is at 74m asl, Liverpool is 20m asl, the Botanic Gardens near the CBD is only 15m asl. But I will concede that the milder eastern suburbs look more botanically subtropical simply because those areas lack killing frosts.... but they also lack consistant heat ( and gloomy cloudy summer days in Jan and Feb... as in I've spent a few chilly cool summer days sitting in a washed out SCG cricket summer...lol ) I think it was Ed's Mountain edmountain over on CD forum who remarked on the same thread topic there, that driving the the streets of Brissy and the Gold Coast, the places have a 'subtropical' look about them botanically/vegetatively and architecturally.... but the same is not as apparent driving the suburban streets of Sydney. Places like Port Macquarie, Coffs, even Taree look 'subtropical' but most of Sydney doesn't ( although I love the Botanical Gardens and have wandered through there many times. Gold coast sea temperature is 21.5°C today. That's not exactly what most people would call warm. Warmer than here or not it's not beach weather. As for the real subtropics. We already do live in the real subtropics. Just not what you view as the subtropics. Though I do admit few apart from weather nerds like us identity Mediterranean climates with being "Dry Subtropical". The term Mediterranean is good enough for one to understand how it differs from temperate oceanic and humid subtropical and so this term is used almost every time to describe Csa climates. In regards to Perth recieving westerly rain in winter which could in no way be regarded as subtropical. Even Jurien Bay recieves such westerlies in winter at 30°S. The only areas on the west coast below the tropics that are kept within the subtropical high pressure system all year around is Geraldton and further North in the semi arid-arid areas. Subtropical is entirely to do with temperatures, not rainfall or where it comes from. Otherwise there is no such thing as subtropical climates on the west coasts of landmasses at all wouldn't you agree or would you regard Desert areas as subtropical? I mean these areas have even less In common with the Tropics which are associated mainly with being wet and humid. Look at a climate like New Orleans with similar winter temperatures to Perth however also with similar rainfall meaning plenty of cooler winter rainfall. I don't think you'll find any Australian who wouldn't regard the likes of New Orleans as subtropical so clearly winter rain isn't the issue. It's temperature everytime. Subtropical climates just can't be too cold in winter. Winter rainfall can add to this sense of coolness in winter i'll grant you that however with so many days over 19°C in winter i doubt you'll find many who find this cool at all. |
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Post by greysrigging on Aug 20, 2023 16:05:47 GMT -5
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Post by Ethereal on Aug 22, 2023 0:48:20 GMT -5
Still, Sydney is subtropical by world standards, if not Aussie standards. And subtropical doesn't mean warm winters. Lmao. Warm winter, hot summer...That pattern is emblematic of tropical savannah climates in India. Besides, Sydney's winters are slightly warm for its latitude though. Compare our winters to those of Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Santiago, Myrtle Beach and the worst, Yancheng with 6C maxima at the coldest! Though SoCal is the only region in our latitude that's slightly warmer in winter and more akin to Port Macquarie as the average highs ago. I wouldn't use rainfall statistics from all the way to 1885. Recently, Feb-March have been wetter than June. The coast is prone to moist onshore flows all year round and most of us don't live in the harbour with the ferries, tourist spots and million dollar + mansions. But these heavy rain events even prove that Sydney is subtropical - Notice how rainfall becomes light as you get to oceanic Victoria (temperate oceanics stereotypically have light rain/drizzle). I'm in Western Sydney, and we're far drier in the winter. Almost dry enough to border Cwa. Except I give you that our cold nights are more 'temperate' than subtropical. Say hello to the second Sydney Airport home:  La Nina summers can be cool, but they're never chilly. They're too humid to be even close to cold. Your perception is different than most of us. Lol. Summers between 2015-2020 were hot asf here, especially the hell that was summer '19. But Sydney is changeable. There are periods of weak summers and blazing summers. Doesn't change the fact that's it's subtropical. Brisbane streets have mangos and poinsettias (both which grow here, if not in high quantity like in Brisbane). Most species they grow there, we can grow here, besides coconuts and very few tropical fruits. And Taree looks subtropical? Lmao, Taree has colder mornings than we do in many days. They've recorded more frost than my suburb has! Just stick with Coffs Harbour being the subtropical/temperate cut-off. Lmao. Show me an example of a 'subtropical' looking street in Port Macquarie/Taree, and show me a temperate looking street in Sydney. I really don't think people would tell the difference. Architecturally? There is now subtropical architecture too?  I'll do it then: Subtropical Taree: Street in TareeTemperate Sydney: Street in SydneyIf i could be bothered I'm sure I could find a palm tree lined street in Taree or Bumfuckistan Punchbowl for that matter... lol Gotta say I'm enjoying the 'discussion'... after all a weather forum is all about observing and interpreting data/stats and weather and climate experiences. I like the fact we can have opposing views on such things without descending into personal insults etc... which seems to be the modern way of trying to make/or win a point... well done both you and Paddy... haha... But ya both still wrong ( hey I'm bein' nice... lol ) I will say but, and ask... why shouldn't one use all available rainfall data ? The modern era AWS might have 30 or 50 years of data.... a blink of the eye climatically.... ya only need a series of La Ninas or El Ninos in a given decade to skew figures, so far as I'm concerned I want way longer than a mere 1991-2020 data set. An interesting article re the La Nina rain at the Botanical Gardens... don't think this happens in the real subtropics.... lol www.smh.com.au/environment/weather/plant-species-under-threat-as-sydney-braces-for-wettest-year-on-record-20220829-p5bdol.htmlAlso an interesting read... www.climatechange.environment.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-06/Metropolitan%20Sydney%20climate%20change%20snapshot.pdfAnd here,,, rpubs.com/Mel_Mike/Sydney-rainfall_trendsNah I'm not the person who uses personal insults when I disagree with someone. It's such a low, cop out thing to do. I respect your opinion, even though I heavily disagree with it. Hahah. We have a lot of Queen Palms here. They're such a mess in our yards, so I got one removed. Lol. I guess you can use the all years data for rainfall. I'm not that against it as it tells the "full story". But I personally go by data no older than 50 years, if not 30. These are good reads for sure, especially the climate change one that's about Sydney's rising temps. Regarding the Botanical Gardens La Nina rainfall, how does a lot of rain negate the fact that one climate is subtropical? All that La Nina deluge was purely subtropical (even somewhat tropical) driven or influenced. Too much rain in any climates can destroy crops and fruit trees, no? So you gotta hide them away from all that surging rain. And such heavy flooding rains occur more in the tropics. Same way drought kills plant life too. I don't see how this bad La Nina event unsubtropical-ifies Sydney tbh... XD |
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Post by Ethereal on Aug 22, 2023 0:52:38 GMT -5
Touche! But all in fairness, that climate map did not use the word subtropical and instead just went with describing the conditions of said climate zone (warm, hot, cold, humid, etc). And yeah, there are far more "temperate" descriptiosn under Sydney's search results than "subtropical". Don't mean much to me. Heheheh And Lol at the last one "Sydney has a Mediterranean climate".... Oh, here Sydney is on the "cooler end of the warm, wet subtropical climates"  |
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Post by greysrigging on Aug 22, 2023 0:56:52 GMT -5
^^'We have a lot of Queen Palms here. They're such a mess in our yards, so I got one removed. Lol.'^^
Yeah. they are a species of palm that grows all over continental AU other than at altitude in the south east ( too cold )
But they will grow happily in Darwin and indeed, I have seen them in suburban Melbourne too.... a coupla very different climatic conditions.... they are a tough hardy species.
Common in Adelaide and Perth too...
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Post by Ethereal on Aug 22, 2023 1:09:45 GMT -5
^^Oh yeah, that CSIRO climate map is a bit odd. So the hotter western Sydney is "mild temperate", the maritime influenced coast is "warm temperate" and yet for some really odd reason, the Parramatta region is under the "warm humid summer/mild winter" zone. Um what? Lmao  |
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Post by greysrigging on Aug 22, 2023 5:35:03 GMT -5
So here are some 'winter' stats from some AU capital cities running clockwise from Brisvegas around to Perth
The data is the last 10 years, so 2023-2014 max temps 15c and lower
Brisbane - 2
Sydney - 50
Canberra - Shitloads - too many to count
Melbourne - 676
Hobart - shitloads - too many to count
Adelaide - 354
Perth - 28
Darwin - 0
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Post by Ethereal on Aug 22, 2023 20:50:08 GMT -5
So here are some 'winter' stats from some AU capital cities running clockwise from Brisvegas around to Perth The data is the last 10 years, so 2023-2014 max temps 15c and lower Brisbane - 2 Sydney - 50 Canberra - Shitloads - too many to count
Melbourne - 676Hobart - shitloads - too many to count Adelaide - 354 Perth - 28 Darwin - 0 Odd, I assumed Melbourne had more than Canberra because Melbourne is cloudier and Canberra would warm up by the afternoon as it's pretty dry (and the foehn effect may be stronger there). Are there stats for Busselton, WA? It's right on the coast like Sydney CBD and it's on the same latitude as us as well. I wonder how that one would fare? I was surprised about Perth's considering the cold fronts there with those mega rain days in winter. I expected them to be around 60. Okay, now I'm tempted to ask you about Esperance WA as well.  |
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Post by greysrigging on Aug 22, 2023 20:56:40 GMT -5
Ok, I'll count the Canberra ones ( I'm curious the real figure as opposed to the term 'shitloads...lol )
In Canberra's case its the altitude and the DALR I'd say...
And Bussleton anecdotally is much cooler than Perth, but I'll have a look as well.
**Edit**
Canberra - 911 days
Busselton - 96
Esperance - 162
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Post by Ethereal on Aug 22, 2023 23:45:55 GMT -5
Ok, I'll count the Canberra ones ( I'm curious the real figure as opposed to the term 'shitloads...lol ) In Canberra's case its the altitude and the DALR I'd say... And Bussleton anecdotally is much cooler than Perth, but I'll have a look as well. **Edit** Canberra - 911 days Busselton - 96 Esperance - 162 Aha! Makes sense now, particularly Bussel's. Shows how exposed they are to moist westerlies compared to Perth. Oh yeah, this is a good read (Australia's climate zones): www.researchgate.net/publication/279766565_Objective_classification_of_Australian_climates |
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Post by Cadeau on Sept 1, 2023 13:08:09 GMT -5
Definition of subtropical can be subjective so I come up with several different criteria to see which fits the best.
A: Coldest Month Mean Temp Above 10°C
B: Annual Mean Temp Above 18°C
C: Warmest Month Mean Temp Above 22°C
Apply Only A
✅Coffs Harbour
✅Taree
✅Sydney
✅Batemans Bay
✅Merimbula
Apply Only B / Apply A & B / Apply A & C / Apply A & C
✅Coffs Harbour
✅Taree
✅Sydney
❌Batemans Bay
❌Merimbula
If you don't believe Tristan da Cunha and San Francisco have a subtropical climate, then the latter one would make more sense.
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Post by Ethereal on Sept 7, 2023 1:47:15 GMT -5
Definition of subtropical can be subjective so I come up with several different criteria to see which fits the best. A: Coldest Month Mean Temp Above 10°C B: Annual Mean Temp Above 18°C C: Warmest Month Mean Temp Above 22°C Apply Only A ✅Coffs Harbour ✅Taree ✅Sydney ✅Batemans Bay ✅Merimbula Apply Only B / Apply A & B / Apply A & C / Apply A & C ✅Coffs Harbour ✅Taree ✅Sydney ❌Batemans Bay ❌Merimbula If you don't believe Tristan da Cunha and San Francisco have a subtropical climate, then the latter one would make more sense. Climatically, I'd apply only A. Botanically, Batemans and Merimbula are subtropical as they're in the plant hardiness zone 10a/b. As I said, the southernmost subtropical rainforest in NSW reaches just north of Merimbula (in Narooma). |
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Post by greysrigging on Sept 7, 2023 2:24:41 GMT -5
^^Climatically, Batemans and Merimbula are not subtropical in any way shape or form in the AU definition of the term. never mind the 'plant hardiness zone' that applies in the US of A. We dont have the extreme mins they use, but often our summer mins etc and changeable temps in the growing season show very different growing conditions. As I've said, the southernmost rainforest's in NSW are actually 'warm to cool temperate', not 'subtropical' botanically whatsoever.
The growth in these temperate forests are based upon rainfall primarily and mean temps secondary... temps that are not subtropical by definition from the AU BOM.
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An extratropical cyclone (ECL) giving us highs of 14C with "cold" rain is a subtropical luxury compared to such mornings under a southerly flowing high pressure system. Besides, unlike Perth, Sydney's winters are mostly sunny and dry due to the foehn effect and the subtropical ridge directing clear weather over us (despite the odd ECL event here and there). 
Lived:
Residence: