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Post by B87 on Aug 15, 2023 11:09:23 GMT -5
You can grow a variety of subtropical plants with a 5c mean in winter.
I think most Australians would say somewhere around Byron Bay for their version of subtropical. Most Americans would probably try to claim Canberra was subtropical. I would say all of these options are subtropical, and the limit is somewhere between Merimbula and Melbourne on the coast.
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Post by desiccatedi85 on Aug 15, 2023 17:36:39 GMT -5
You can grow a variety of subtropical plants with a 5c mean in winter. I think most Australians would say somewhere around Byron Bay for their version of subtropical. Most Americans would probably try to claim Canberra was subtropical. I would say all of these options are subtropical, and the limit is somewhere between Merimbula and Melbourne on the coast. American here. I doubt most Americans would claim Canberra is subtropical. Sure, it's winters are mild enough to be subtropical (though not by much), and very similar to Norfolk VA. The annual mean and summer temps are surely lacking though. Canberra is firmly an ocean-moderated warm temperate climate, with the same annual mean as NYC. It really isn't too different from somewhere in Northern Spain or Western France, or even much of New Zealand. |
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Post by greysrigging on Aug 15, 2023 17:40:06 GMT -5
You can grow a variety of subtropical plants with a 5c mean in winter. I think most Australians would say somewhere around Byron Bay for their version of subtropical. Most Americans would probably try to claim Canberra was subtropical. I would say all of these options are subtropical, and the limit is somewhere between Merimbula and Melbourne on the coast. American here. I doubt most Americans would claim Canberra is subtropical. Sure, it's winters are mild enough to be subtropical (though not by much), and very similar to Norfolk VA. The annual mean and summer temps are surely lacking though. Canberra is firmly an ocean-moderated warm temperate climate, with the same annual mean as NYC. It really isn't too different from somewhere in Northern Spain or Western France, or even much of New Zealand. Most Aussies think of Canberra as only one step below Macquarie island on the climate scale.......ie cold as a witches tit !  Here's an old thread re similar latitude and altitude locations in the US and AU re subtropicallity cdweather.boards.net/thread/3406/rate-subtropicality-north-amd-south |
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Post by Ethereal on Aug 17, 2023 1:40:22 GMT -5
I've always thought north of Newcastle as being subtropical and South of Nowra being Oceanic. In between I would say is transitional. I used to think that the subtropical zone began from the Central Coast (50km north of Sydney, from Gosford and north). Sydney was always described as "oceanic" from what I remember on Wikipedia, so I went by that idea. Until 2014, when people from City-Data began to subtropical-fy Sydney (rightfully though) and called out the Bureau of Meteorology for their bullshit "temperate" classification of Sydney, where they nicely provided Koppen weather sources. As such, I became emboldened and added "humid subtropical" on its climate description back in 2014 or so. They didn't accept it at first, but I smacked a reliable source on their face until they allowed it. Lol. So that "humid subtropical" you see there in Sydney's article, it was added by me.  Here is a screenshot of Sydney's Wikipedia climate section from 2007 (notice oceanic - it was such until 2009 when they replaced it with "temperate"  ...up until I added humid subtropical in 2014):  |
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Post by Ethereal on Aug 17, 2023 1:46:40 GMT -5
You can grow a variety of subtropical plants with a 5c mean in winter. I think most Australians would say somewhere around Byron Bay for their version of subtropical. Most Americans would probably try to claim Canberra was subtropical. I would say all of these options are subtropical, and the limit is somewhere between Merimbula and Melbourne on the coast. American here. I doubt most Americans would claim Canberra is subtropical. Sure, it's winters are mild enough to be subtropical (though not by much), and very similar to Norfolk VA. The annual mean and summer temps are surely lacking though. Canberra is firmly an ocean-moderated warm temperate climate, with the same annual mean as NYC. It really isn't too different from somewhere in Northern Spain or Western France, or even much of New Zealand. I personally wouldn't say Canberra is a "warm temperate climate", due to its chilly lows in winter (and even the summer lows aren't warm). I also wouldn't call it a "subtropical highland" as some people do. I'd say it's an "oceanic highland climate". I don't like the "subtropical highland" classification being used so liberally for cool climates, as many highland climates are very oceanic and chilly, such as Katoomba and Lithgow in the Blue Mountains, among many others. Melbourne is an "ocean-moderated temperate climate" or a "moderate oceanic climate" - I wouldn't call it either warm or cool, just in between. So "moderate" seems right. The subtropical zone can be argued to end at Mallacoota in the northeastern fringes of Victoria (if it has to reach Victoria and if you want a limit in Victoria). But overall, Victoria is too cool for subtropical. As I said earlier, the southern limit where subtropical rainforest exist in NSW is Narooma, which is 120km north of Merimbula. So maybe Narooma could be the southernmost subtropical climate. |
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Post by melonside421 on Aug 18, 2023 11:50:31 GMT -5
All of these are subtropical, but there really isn't a really good alternative word for this type of climate vibe thing, maybe "warm oceanic"? Methinks that despite tropical areas being well known for things like coconuts, bananas, and dragonfruit, subtropical areas do include many areas that really can't grow bananas, but things like broadleaf i.e., live oaks and wax myrtles) and palms, still exist as well as the ability to grow things like rosemary, lavender, and collard greens to name a few stuff.
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Post by greysrigging on Aug 18, 2023 16:43:25 GMT -5
All of these are subtropical, but there really isn't a really good alternative word for this type of climate vibe thing, maybe "warm oceanic"? Methinks that despite tropical areas being well known for things like coconuts, bananas, and dragonfruit, subtropical areas do include many areas that really can't grow bananas, but things like broadleaf i.e., live oaks and wax myrtles) and palms, still exist as well as the ability to grow things like rosemary, lavender, and collard greens to name a few stuff. In the AU version of the subtropics its as simple as this...cool temperate to warm temperate can grow the stone fruits ie peaches, pears, apples, apricots, citrus, plums, cherries etc. AU subtropical regions can grow the torrid zone fruits ( mostly ) ie bananas, mangos, durian, jackfruit, custard apple, guava and coconuts. Coconuts are actually quite specific in their climatic requirements, but will grow as far south as Northern NSW, albeit likely wont set seed. Some purely tropcal fruit trees wont grow in the milder subtropics of AU ie breadfruit and mangosteen. I've seen the odd mango tree in Sydney.... specifically on the verge outside of the Sydney Engineering workshop in the western suburb of Smithfield. It was/is a peach mango, very nicely flavoured....the tree was a bit ratty lookin', never really looked after, but in mid Feb it used to produce edible fruit. Was always a 3 way battle between me and a couple of Vietnamese welders ( their nicknames were the 'Ho Chi Minh Twins' lol ) as to who was gunna score the harvest rights. As for ornamental decorative trees, the Jacaranda is the species that is the eptitome of subtropical and warm temperate coastal AU and is common throughout the south east and inland regions too...but not at moderate altitude areas that get heavy frosts. The same reason that they wont grow in much of the US south east.... they cant take killing frosts. |
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Post by melonside421 on Aug 18, 2023 20:21:42 GMT -5
All of these are subtropical, but there really isn't a really good alternative word for this type of climate vibe thing, maybe "warm oceanic"? Methinks that despite tropical areas being well known for things like coconuts, bananas, and dragonfruit, subtropical areas do include many areas that really can't grow bananas, but things like broadleaf i.e., live oaks and wax myrtles) and palms, still exist as well as the ability to grow things like rosemary, lavender, and collard greens to name a few stuff. In the AU version of the subtropics its as simple as this...cool temperate to warm temperate can grow the stone fruits ie peaches, pears, apples, apricots, citrus, plums, cherries etc. AU subtropical regions can grow the torrid zone fruits ( mostly ) ie bananas, mangos, durian, jackfruit, custard apple, guava and coconuts. Coconuts are actually quite specific in their climatic requirements, but will grow as far south as Northern NSW, albeit likely wont set seed. Some purely tropcal fruit trees wont grow in the milder subtropics of AU ie breadfruit and mangosteen. I've seen the odd mango tree in Sydney.... specifically on the verge outside of the Sydney Engineering workshop in the western suburb of Smithfield. It was/is a peach mango, very nicely flavoured....the tree was a bit ratty lookin', never really looked after, but in mid Feb it used to produce edible fruit. Was always a 3 way battle between me and a couple of Vietnamese welders ( their nicknames were the 'Ho Chi Minh Twins' lol ) as to who was gunna score the harvest rights. As for ornamental decorative trees, the Jacaranda is the species that is the eptitome of subtropical and warm temperate coastal AU and is common throughout the south east and inland regions too...but not at moderate altitude areas that get heavy frosts. The same reason that they wont grow in much of the US south east.... they cant take killing frosts. I can understand what you are saying, but what I described was merely my own perspective. I am glad to see what your perspective is, cause there is truth to this, as there is a spectrum of a transition from cool temperate to tropical, in which climates like Richmond, VA can grow rosemary and lavender but no palms or olives, and Australians tend to not get as much killing freezes as Americans do, which I very much know what that's like  I grow peaches, apples, plums, butias and figs in a zone 8b area, in which there is some selection of both stereotypes: Temperate fruits being peaches and apples whilst subtropical fruits being butias and olives, maybe citrus?  |
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Post by paddy234 on Aug 18, 2023 23:07:35 GMT -5
All of these are subtropical, but there really isn't a really good alternative word for this type of climate vibe thing, maybe "warm oceanic"? Methinks that despite tropical areas being well known for things like coconuts, bananas, and dragonfruit, subtropical areas do include many areas that really can't grow bananas, but things like broadleaf i.e., live oaks and wax myrtles) and palms, still exist as well as the ability to grow things like rosemary, lavender, and collard greens to name a few stuff. In the AU version of the subtropics its as simple as this...cool temperate to warm temperate can grow the stone fruits ie peaches, pears, apples, apricots, citrus, plums, cherries etc. AU subtropical regions can grow the torrid zone fruits ( mostly ) ie bananas, mangos, durian, jackfruit, custard apple, guava and coconuts. Coconuts are actually quite specific in their climatic requirements, but will grow as far south as Northern NSW, albeit likely wont set seed. Some purely tropcal fruit trees wont grow in the milder subtropics of AU ie breadfruit and mangosteen. I've seen the odd mango tree in Sydney.... specifically on the verge outside of the Sydney Engineering workshop in the western suburb of Smithfield. It was/is a peach mango, very nicely flavoured....the tree was a bit ratty lookin', never really looked after, but in mid Feb it used to produce edible fruit. Was always a 3 way battle between me and a couple of Vietnamese welders ( their nicknames were the 'Ho Chi Minh Twins' lol ) as to who was gunna score the harvest rights. As for ornamental decorative trees, the Jacaranda is the species that is the eptitome of subtropical and warm temperate coastal AU and is common throughout the south east and inland regions too...but not at moderate altitude areas that get heavy frosts. The same reason that they wont grow in much of the US south east.... they cant take killing frosts. Honestly mate there isn't really such thing as an Aussie version of the subtropics that most people agree on. The most used term by those who have some Understanding just tend to use the Global standard of Koppen. Even on these forums most Australians still seem to agree on Koppen when describing Australia for the most part. Apart from Adelaide. Adelaide is the only controversial climate in which I've never heard an Australian ever describe as subtropical. Even on the climate forums though it is described as such by Koppen and most people outside Australia would see it as such if they knew what subtropical meant lol. I certainly would. I've also never heard the term warm or cool temperate being used in Australia apart from yourself and maybe a few others and even less so in gardening sites of Australia sites Your definition of subtropical however I feel is so harsh it even excludes Northern Florida yet I don't think you'd ever find many Australians even from the North who wouldn't regard Northern Florida as subtropical. I get that Tropical Australians may have their own view. While I understand You don't view climates with low winter temperatures as subtropical we have to remember the low temperatures may only last a few hours. You felt such temperatures yourself all the way up in Subtropical Brisbane. Then of course it gets pretty warm in the afternoon. Also bananas and mangoes, Jackfruit etc grow quite well in Sydney yet you won't exactly find them on a Temperate Oceanic climate like the South Island of New Zealand. Therefore most Subtropical vegetation you mentioned does grow in Sydney and in many cases further South |
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Post by Ethereal on Aug 19, 2023 3:17:32 GMT -5
In the AU version of the subtropics its as simple as this...cool temperate to warm temperate can grow the stone fruits ie peaches, pears, apples, apricots, citrus, plums, cherries etc. AU subtropical regions can grow the torrid zone fruits ( mostly ) ie bananas, mangos, durian, jackfruit, custard apple, guava and coconuts. Coconuts are actually quite specific in their climatic requirements, but will grow as far south as Northern NSW, albeit likely wont set seed. Some purely tropcal fruit trees wont grow in the milder subtropics of AU ie breadfruit and mangosteen. I've seen the odd mango tree in Sydney.... specifically on the verge outside of the Sydney Engineering workshop in the western suburb of Smithfield. It was/is a peach mango, very nicely flavoured....the tree was a bit ratty lookin', never really looked after, but in mid Feb it used to produce edible fruit. Was always a 3 way battle between me and a couple of Vietnamese welders ( their nicknames were the 'Ho Chi Minh Twins' lol ) as to who was gunna score the harvest rights. As for ornamental decorative trees, the Jacaranda is the species that is the eptitome of subtropical and warm temperate coastal AU and is common throughout the south east and inland regions too...but not at moderate altitude areas that get heavy frosts. The same reason that they wont grow in much of the US south east.... they cant take killing frosts. Honestly mate there isn't really such thing as an Aussie version of the subtropics that most people agree on. The most used term by those who have some Understanding just tend to use the Global standard of Koppen. Even on these forums most Australians still seem to agree on Koppen when describing Australia for the most part. Apart from Adelaide. Adelaide is the only controversial climate in which I've never heard an Australian ever describe as subtropical. Even on the climate forums though it is described as such by Koppen and most people outside Australia would see it as such if they knew what subtropical meant lol. I certainly would. I've also never heard the term warm or cool temperate being used in Australia apart from yourself and maybe a few others and even less so in gardening sites of Australia sites Your definition of subtropical however I feel is so harsh it even excludes Northern Florida yet I don't think you'd ever find many Australians even from the North who wouldn't regard Northern Florida as subtropical. I get that Tropical Australians may have their own view. While I understand You don't view climates with low winter temperatures as subtropical we have to remember the low temperatures may only last a few hours. You felt such temperatures yourself all the way up in Subtropical Brisbane. Then of course it gets pretty warm in the afternoon. Also bananas and mangoes, Jackfruit etc grow quite well in Sydney yet you won't exactly find them on a Temperate Oceanic climate like the South Island of New Zealand. Therefore most Subtropical vegetation you mentioned does grow in Sydney and in many cases further South I hope greysrigging can agree and settle on the idea that Sydney is a warm temperate climate that is vegetatively subtropical... lmao Other than growing, what about flowering? My bower vine ( Pandorea jasminoides), a quasi-tropical/subtropical vine from eastern QLD, flowers all year round, even in the dead of winter. I'm pretty sure it will go more dormant in a cooler temperate climate. Also, the weedy tropical vines, Morning Glories (Ipomoeas), flower immensely in winter here, even in as far the Blue Mountains, as I see them snaking around in disturbed bushland with their beautiful blue-purple flowers. Lantanas and Black Eyed Susans (Thunbergia alata) also never stop flowering here. I doubt these would flower in "true" temperate winters of, say, Hobart or Wellington. |
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Post by greysrigging on Aug 19, 2023 4:49:42 GMT -5
^^ LOL... all you blokes... when its pissin' down cold rain on a wintery Sydney and Perth 15c June-July day... keep tellin' yaselves it's 'fucken lovely here in the 34*S subtropics'.... then get straight online and book a flight to the Gold Coast and actually go for swim on Main Beach/Broardbeach and ogle the skimpy bikini babes or ( speedo clad blokes... )... And yes indeed Ethereal... Coastal Sydney is firmly a warm temperate oceanic climate exactly as described in BoM publications.... but as you keep sayin' re the Sydney climate data... its a big place geographically and eastern and the western regions away from the coast differ somewhat climatically... And paddy234 , you will never hear of an Aussie weather nerd describe Adelaide as 'subtropical simply because it ain't.... those winter frontal westerlies have nothing whatsover to do with the subtropics in AU.... completely different sorta climatic dynamics. Adelaide and Melbourne are more similar climatically.... |
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Post by paddy234 on Aug 19, 2023 6:45:56 GMT -5
^^ LOL... all you blokes... when its pissin' down cold rain on a wintery Sydney and Perth 15c June-July day... keep tellin' yaselves it's 'fucken lovely here in the 34*S subtropics'.... then get straight online and book a flight to the Gold Coast and actually go for swim on Main Beach/Broardbeach and ogle the skimpy bikini babes or ( speedo clad blokes... )... And yes indeed Ethereal... Coastal Sydney is firmly a warm temperate oceanic climate exactly as described in BoM publications.... but as you keep sayin' re the Sydney climate data... its a big place geographically and eastern and the western regions away from the coast differ somewhat climatically... And paddy234 , you will never hear of an Aussie weather nerd describe Adelaide as 'subtropical simply because it ain't.... those winter frontal westerlies have nothing whatsover to do with the subtropics in AU.... completely different sorta climatic dynamics. Adelaide and Melbourne are more similar climatically.... Lol cheaper to fly to Bali than the Gold coast and at least it's warmer. It's only 23°C in the Gold coast at the moment while it was 21°C here. Only a few degree difference and there's no way women on the Gold Coast are walking around in Bikinis in that weather lol. Also Perth is 31-32°S lol. Almost half of this winter month has been 20°+. You won't get that in a Temperate climate lol. As for Sydney, they only were 2°C different than the Gold coast this July with the average high. Really not much different at all and certainly not the difference beteen cold rain and beach weather lol. I don't find any Subtropical climate having many beach days in winter, the low 20's is not a beach day lol. As for Adelaide not being subtropical. I understand from an Australian perspective it isn't but Adelaide's climate being a Mediterranean hot summer climate is affected by the same subtropical high pressure system that affects the rest of the subtropical region. It's obviously right on the boundary line. It will be seen by essentially most people outside Australia as such. Changeable climate or not it will be seen as a warm climate. The reality is there is no such thing as Australia having it's own climate classifications such as cool temperate and warm temperate etc. There is only one temperate classification. Warm temperate is literially another term to describe subtropical. It seems based on your comment about Adelaide that for you to see a climate as Subtropical it can't be affected in either way by cool westerlies that come through as the subtropical high pressure system moves north. Obviously why you picked the Horse latitudes as to when the Subtropics begins? |
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Post by Ethereal on Aug 19, 2023 19:11:34 GMT -5
^^ LOL... all you blokes... when its pissin' down cold rain on a wintery Sydney and Perth 15c June-July day... keep tellin' yaselves it's 'fucken lovely here in the 34*S subtropics'.... then get straight online and book a flight to the Gold Coast and actually go for swim on Main Beach/Broardbeach and ogle the skimpy bikini babes or ( speedo clad blokes... )... And yes indeed Ethereal ... Coastal Sydney is firmly a warm temperate oceanic climate exactly as described in BoM publications.... but as you keep sayin' re the Sydney climate data... its a big place geographically and eastern and the western regions away from the coast differ somewhat climatically... And paddy234 , you will never hear of an Aussie weather nerd describe Adelaide as 'subtropical simply because it ain't.... those winter frontal westerlies have nothing whatsover to do with the subtropics in AU.... completely different sorta climatic dynamics. Adelaide and Melbourne are more similar climatically.... 15C is not cold rain for me, just cool to mild (nights can be humid in such conditions with 12C lows ukhhh, but maybe I'm just humid intolerant). What feels cold to me is when a huge high pressure system over NSW in winter brings temps down to 0C in the mornings. The air feels bone chilling and that coldness would linger on to midday (and these can affect southeast QLD). So I can give you that.  An extratropical cyclone (ECL) giving us highs of 14C with "cold" rain is a subtropical luxury compared to such mornings under a southerly flowing high pressure system. Besides, unlike Perth, Sydney's winters are mostly sunny and dry due to the foehn effect and the subtropical ridge directing clear weather over us (despite the odd ECL event here and there). Speaking of "as described by BOM publications", well, according to BOM, Perth is in the subtropical zone, but I assume you don't count it as such? What exactly is "warm temperate" though? Because even NYC and Washington DC can be shoved under it. But my question was, would you agree that Sydney is at least botanically subtropical? P.S. Gold Coast is still a bit cool in winter for the water and beaches. I've only been there in early autumn and midspring. |
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Post by Babu on Aug 20, 2023 2:11:05 GMT -5
All of mainland Australia is subtropical at sea level.
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Post by greysrigging on Aug 20, 2023 2:52:27 GMT -5
All of mainland Australia is subtropical at sea level. No its not you sllly bastard...go back to the North Pole or wherever it you live.... lol !  |
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Post by greysrigging on Aug 20, 2023 3:47:07 GMT -5
^^ LOL... all you blokes... when its pissin' down cold rain on a wintery Sydney and Perth 15c June-July day... keep tellin' yaselves it's 'fucken lovely here in the 34*S subtropics'.... then get straight online and book a flight to the Gold Coast and actually go for swim on Main Beach/Broardbeach and ogle the skimpy bikini babes or ( speedo clad blokes... )... And yes indeed Ethereal ... Coastal Sydney is firmly a warm temperate oceanic climate exactly as described in BoM publications.... but as you keep sayin' re the Sydney climate data... its a big place geographically and eastern and the western regions away from the coast differ somewhat climatically... And paddy234 , you will never hear of an Aussie weather nerd describe Adelaide as 'subtropical simply because it ain't.... those winter frontal westerlies have nothing whatsover to do with the subtropics in AU.... completely different sorta climatic dynamics. Adelaide and Melbourne are more similar climatically.... 15C is not cold rain for me, just cool to mild (nights can be humid in such conditions with 12C lows ukhhh, but maybe I'm just humid intolerant). What feels cold to me is when a huge high pressure system over NSW in winter brings temps down to 0C in the mornings. The air feels bone chilling and that coldness would linger on to midday (and these can affect southeast QLD). So I can give you that. An extratropical cyclone (ECL) giving us highs of 14C with "cold" rain is a subtropical luxury compared to such mornings under a southerly flowing high pressure system. Besides, unlike Perth, Sydney's winters are mostly sunny and dry due to the foehn effect and the subtropical ridge directing clear weather over us (despite the odd ECL event here and there). Speaking of "as described by BOM publications", well, according to BOM, Perth is in the subtropical zone, but I assume you don't count it as such? What exactly is "warm temperate" though? Because even NYC and Washington DC can be shoved under it. But my question was, would you agree that Sydney is at least botanically subtropical? P.S. Gold Coast is still a bit cool in winter for the water and beaches. I've only been there in early autumn and midspring. ^^ its a damn sight warmer than Cronulla Beach ( or Cottesloe ) in the winter months... thats for sure.... honestly you blokes... go and spend a winter in the real subtropics and come back with some real world experience/observations... just sayin'.... Oh and although Perth is close/bordeline 'subtropics' by temperature means, the climate patterns, ie the winter rains and frontal westerlies are hard to reconcile with the subject matter in an AU context... and that is generally about the line where the rains are warmer summer based ( yes, like Sydney and surrounds except Sydney still gets a reasonable amount of cooler winter rains as represented by the May-August means at the Botanic Gardens... 434.9mm av over those 4 months.... doesn't sound too bright and sunny to me....   Oh and Sydney 'botanically subtropical' ? so which part of Sydney are we talkin' about here ? As discussed on other pages, the Harbour, Liverpool, Manly Beach, Penrith, Bondi, Camden, the Airport....? Big place with lots of different climate characterists and botanical chartacteristics... ie Jacaranda's line the main drag in Camden, but no mangos or bananas out there nor indeed any subtropical species... naturally, as the Nepean/Hawkesbury Valleys are frosty places in winter at low altitude ( ie Camden is at 74m asl, Liverpool is 20m asl, the Botanic Gardens near the CBD is only 15m asl. But I will concede that the milder eastern suburbs look more botanically subtropical simply because those areas lack killing frosts.... but they also lack consistant heat ( and gloomy cloudy summer days in Jan and Feb... as in I've spent a few chilly cool summer days sitting in a washed out SCG cricket summer...lol ) I think it was Ed's Mountain edmountain over on CD forum who remarked on the same thread topic there, that driving the the streets of Brissy and the Gold Coast, the places have a 'subtropical' look about them botanically/vegetatively and architecturally.... but the same is not as apparent driving the suburban streets of Sydney. Places like Port Macquarie, Coffs, even Taree look 'subtropical' but most of Sydney doesn't ( although I love the Botanical Gardens and have wandered through there many times. |
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Post by Ethereal on Aug 20, 2023 4:41:33 GMT -5
15C is not cold rain for me, just cool to mild (nights can be humid in such conditions with 12C lows ukhhh, but maybe I'm just humid intolerant). What feels cold to me is when a huge high pressure system over NSW in winter brings temps down to 0C in the mornings. The air feels bone chilling and that coldness would linger on to midday (and these can affect southeast QLD). So I can give you that. An extratropical cyclone (ECL) giving us highs of 14C with "cold" rain is a subtropical luxury compared to such mornings under a southerly flowing high pressure system. Besides, unlike Perth, Sydney's winters are mostly sunny and dry due to the foehn effect and the subtropical ridge directing clear weather over us (despite the odd ECL event here and there). Speaking of "as described by BOM publications", well, according to BOM, Perth is in the subtropical zone, but I assume you don't count it as such? What exactly is "warm temperate" though? Because even NYC and Washington DC can be shoved under it. But my question was, would you agree that Sydney is at least botanically subtropical? P.S. Gold Coast is still a bit cool in winter for the water and beaches. I've only been there in early autumn and midspring. ^^ its a damn sight warmer than Cronulla Beach ( or Cottesloe ) in the winter months... thats for sure.... honestly you blokes... go and spend a winter in the real subtropics and come back with some real world experience/observations... just sayin'.... Oh and although Perth is close/bordeline 'subtropics' by temperature means, the climate patterns, ie the winter rains and frontal westerlies are hard to reconcile with the subject matter in an AU context... and that is generally about the line where the rains are warmer summer based ( yes, like Sydney and surrounds except Sydney still gets a reasonable amount of cooler winter rains as represented by the May-August means at the Botanic Gardens... 434.9mm av over those 4 months.... doesn't sound too bright and sunny to me.... Oh and Sydney 'botanically subtropical' ? so which part of Sydney are we talkin' about here ? As discussed on other pages, the Harbour, Liverpool, Manly Beach, Penrith, Bondi, Camden, the Airport....? Big place with lots of different climate characterists and botanical chartacteristics... ie Jacaranda's line the main drag in Camden, but no mangos or bananas out there nor indeed any subtropical species... naturally, as the Nepean/Hawkesbury Valleys are frosty places in winter at low altitude ( ie Camden is at 74m asl, Liverpool is 20m asl, the Botanic Gardens near the CBD is only 15m asl. But I will concede that the milder eastern suburbs look more botanically subtropical simply because those areas lack killing frosts.... but they also lack consistant heat ( and gloomy cloudy summer days in Jan and Feb... as in I've spent a few chilly cool summer days sitting in a washed out SCG cricket summer...lol ) I think it was Ed's Mountain edmountain over on CD forum who remarked on the same thread topic there, that driving the the streets of Brissy and the Gold Coast, the places have a 'subtropical' look about them botanically/vegetatively and architecturally.... but the same is not as apparent driving the suburban streets of Sydney. Places like Port Macquarie, Coffs, even Taree look 'subtropical' but most of Sydney doesn't ( although I love the Botanical Gardens and have wandered through there many times. Still, Sydney is subtropical by world standards, if not Aussie standards. And subtropical doesn't mean warm winters. Lmao. Warm winter, hot summer...That pattern is emblematic of tropical savannah climates in India. Besides, Sydney's winters are slightly warm for its latitude though. Compare our winters to those of Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Santiago, Myrtle Beach and the worst, Yancheng with 6C maxima at the coldest! Though SoCal is the only region in our latitude that's slightly warmer in winter and more akin to Port Macquarie as the average highs ago. I wouldn't use rainfall statistics from all the way to 1885. Recently, Feb-March have been wetter than June. The coast is prone to moist onshore flows all year round and most of us don't live in the harbour with the ferries, tourist spots and million dollar + mansions. But these heavy rain events even prove that Sydney is subtropical - Notice how rainfall becomes light as you get to oceanic Victoria (temperate oceanics stereotypically have light rain/drizzle). I'm in Western Sydney, and we're far drier in the winter. Almost dry enough to border Cwa. Except I give you that our cold nights are more 'temperate' than subtropical. Say hello to the second Sydney Airport home:  La Nina summers can be cool, but they're never chilly. They're too humid to be even close to cold. Your perception is different than most of us. Lol. Summers between 2015-2020 were hot asf here, especially the hell that was summer '19. But Sydney is changeable. There are periods of weak summers and blazing summers. Doesn't change the fact that's it's subtropical. Brisbane streets have mangos and poincianas (both which grow here, if not in high quantity like in Brisbane). Most species they grow there, we can grow here, besides coconuts and very few tropical fruits. And Taree looks subtropical? Lmao, Taree has colder mornings than we do in many days. They've recorded more frost than my suburb has! Just stick with Coffs Harbour being the subtropical/temperate cut-off. Lmao. Show me an example of a 'subtropical' looking street in Port Macquarie/Taree, and show me a temperate looking street in Sydney. I really don't think people would tell the difference. Architecturally? There is now subtropical architecture too? I'll do it then: Subtropical Taree: Street in TareeTemperate Sydney: Street in Sydney |
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Post by greysrigging on Aug 20, 2023 5:55:16 GMT -5
^^ its a damn sight warmer than Cronulla Beach ( or Cottesloe ) in the winter months... thats for sure.... honestly you blokes... go and spend a winter in the real subtropics and come back with some real world experience/observations... just sayin'.... Oh and although Perth is close/bordeline 'subtropics' by temperature means, the climate patterns, ie the winter rains and frontal westerlies are hard to reconcile with the subject matter in an AU context... and that is generally about the line where the rains are warmer summer based ( yes, like Sydney and surrounds except Sydney still gets a reasonable amount of cooler winter rains as represented by the May-August means at the Botanic Gardens... 434.9mm av over those 4 months.... doesn't sound too bright and sunny to me.... Oh and Sydney 'botanically subtropical' ? so which part of Sydney are we talkin' about here ? As discussed on other pages, the Harbour, Liverpool, Manly Beach, Penrith, Bondi, Camden, the Airport....? Big place with lots of different climate characterists and botanical chartacteristics... ie Jacaranda's line the main drag in Camden, but no mangos or bananas out there nor indeed any subtropical species... naturally, as the Nepean/Hawkesbury Valleys are frosty places in winter at low altitude ( ie Camden is at 74m asl, Liverpool is 20m asl, the Botanic Gardens near the CBD is only 15m asl. But I will concede that the milder eastern suburbs look more botanically subtropical simply because those areas lack killing frosts.... but they also lack consistant heat ( and gloomy cloudy summer days in Jan and Feb... as in I've spent a few chilly cool summer days sitting in a washed out SCG cricket summer...lol ) I think it was Ed's Mountain edmountain over on CD forum who remarked on the same thread topic there, that driving the the streets of Brissy and the Gold Coast, the places have a 'subtropical' look about them botanically/vegetatively and architecturally.... but the same is not as apparent driving the suburban streets of Sydney. Places like Port Macquarie, Coffs, even Taree look 'subtropical' but most of Sydney doesn't ( although I love the Botanical Gardens and have wandered through there many times. Still, Sydney is subtropical by world standards, if not Aussie standards. And subtropical doesn't mean warm winters. Lmao. Warm winter, hot summer...That pattern is emblematic of tropical savannah climates in India. Besides, Sydney's winters are slightly warm for its latitude though. Compare our winters to those of Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Santiago, Myrtle Beach and the worst, Yancheng with 6C maxima at the coldest! Though SoCal is the only region in our latitude that's slightly warmer in winter and more akin to Port Macquarie as the average highs ago. I wouldn't use rainfall statistics from all the way to 1885. Recently, Feb-March have been wetter than June. The coast is prone to moist onshore flows all year round and most of us don't live in the harbour with the ferries, tourist spots and million dollar + mansions. But these heavy rain events even prove that Sydney is subtropical - Notice how rainfall becomes light as you get to oceanic Victoria (temperate oceanics stereotypically have light rain/drizzle). I'm in Western Sydney, and we're far drier in the winter. Almost dry enough to border Cwa. Except I give you that our cold nights are more 'temperate' than subtropical. Say hello to the second Sydney Airport home: La Nina summers can be cool, but they're never chilly. They're too humid to be even close to cold. Your perception is different than most of us. Lol. Summers between 2015-2020 were hot asf here, especially the hell that was summer '19. But Sydney is changeable. There are periods of weak summers and blazing summers. Doesn't change the fact that's it's subtropical. Brisbane streets have mangos and poinsettias (both which grow here, if not in high quantity like in Brisbane). Most species they grow there, we can grow here, besides coconuts and very few tropical fruits. And Taree looks subtropical? Lmao, Taree has colder mornings than we do in many days. They've recorded more frost than my suburb has! Just stick with Coffs Harbour being the subtropical/temperate cut-off. Lmao. Show me an example of a 'subtropical' looking street in Port Macquarie/Taree, and show me a temperate looking street in Sydney. I really don't think people would tell the difference. Architecturally? There is now subtropical architecture too? I'll do it then: Subtropical Taree: Street in TareeTemperate Sydney: Street in SydneyIf i could be bothered I'm sure I could find a palm tree lined street in Taree or Bumfuckistan Punchbowl for that matter... lol Gotta say I'm enjoying the 'discussion'... after all a weather forum is all about observing and interpreting data/stats and weather and climate experiences. I like the fact we can have opposing views on such things without descending into personal insults etc... which seems to be the modern way of trying to make/or win a point... well done both you and Paddy... haha... But ya both still wrong ( hey I'm bein' nice... lol ) I will say but, and ask... why shouldn't one use all available rainfall data ? The modern era AWS might have 30 or 50 years of data.... a blink of the eye climatically.... ya only need a series of La Ninas or El Ninos in a given decade to skew figures, so far as I'm concerned I want way longer than a mere 1991-2020 data set. An interesting article re the La Nina rain at the Botanical Gardens... don't think this happens in the real subtropics.... lol www.smh.com.au/environment/weather/plant-species-under-threat-as-sydney-braces-for-wettest-year-on-record-20220829-p5bdol.htmlAlso an interesting read... www.climatechange.environment.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-06/Metropolitan%20Sydney%20climate%20change%20snapshot.pdfAnd here,,, rpubs.com/Mel_Mike/Sydney-rainfall_trends |
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Post by paddy234 on Aug 20, 2023 10:22:22 GMT -5
^^ LOL... all you blokes... when its pissin' down cold rain on a wintery Sydney and Perth 15c June-July day... keep tellin' yaselves it's 'fucken lovely here in the 34*S subtropics'.... then get straight online and book a flight to the Gold Coast and actually go for swim on Main Beach/Broardbeach and ogle the skimpy bikini babes or ( speedo clad blokes... )... And yes indeed Ethereal ... Coastal Sydney is firmly a warm temperate oceanic climate exactly as described in BoM publications.... but as you keep sayin' re the Sydney climate data... its a big place geographically and eastern and the western regions away from the coast differ somewhat climatically... And paddy234 , you will never hear of an Aussie weather nerd describe Adelaide as 'subtropical simply because it ain't.... those winter frontal westerlies have nothing whatsover to do with the subtropics in AU.... completely different sorta climatic dynamics. Adelaide and Melbourne are more similar climatically.... 15C is not cold rain for me, just cool to mild (nights can be humid in such conditions with 12C lows ukhhh, but maybe I'm just humid intolerant). What feels cold to me is when a huge high pressure system over NSW in winter brings temps down to 0C in the mornings. The air feels bone chilling and that coldness would linger on to midday (and these can affect southeast QLD). So I can give you that. An extratropical cyclone (ECL) giving us highs of 14C with "cold" rain is a subtropical luxury compared to such mornings under a southerly flowing high pressure system. Besides, unlike Perth, Sydney's winters are mostly sunny and dry due to the foehn effect and the subtropical ridge directing clear weather over us (despite the odd ECL event here and there).  Speaking of "as described by BOM publications", well, according to BOM, Perth is in the subtropical zone, but I assume you don't count it as such? What exactly is "warm temperate" though? Because even NYC and Washington DC can be shoved under it. But my question was, would you agree that Sydney is at least botanically subtropical? P.S. Gold Coast is still a bit cool in winter for the water and beaches. I've only been there in early autumn and midspring. The subtropical high pressure zone doesn't really have a huge effect on most of the East Coast of Australia. Its something that mainly effects the western side of continents which is why the west is so dry and where so many deserts are located. Brisbane does have fairly dry winters however it is right on the lower end of where the subtropical high pressure system resides while it is in the tropics (Winter). Humid subtropical climates therefore don't get a dry season. They are just typically wetter in the Warmer months due to the lack of this high pressure and the prevailing easterly winds from the tropics which bring Warm humid air. Of course depending on the strength of these Easterlies then the east coast can either be wetter or drier than average. |
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Post by sari on Aug 20, 2023 10:46:54 GMT -5
It's at Merimbula on the coast, or just north of it, but it's on the absolute limit, and stops being subtropical a very short distance inland from there.
I might even say that Merimbula is subtropical but Bega (north of Merimbula, but 7km inland) is not, with the line at a 10C average in the coolest month (Merimbula 10.45, Bega 9.45). Admittedly this is a bit of hair-splitting, but drawing hard lines on natural gradients always is. At the very least, Sydney is certainly subtropical and it's a little absurd to argue otherwise. |
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...up until I added humid subtropical in 2014):
I grow peaches, apples, plums, butias and figs in a zone 8b area, in which there is some selection of both stereotypes: Temperate fruits being peaches and apples whilst subtropical fruits being butias and olives, maybe citrus? 
An extratropical cyclone (ECL) giving us highs of 14C with "cold" rain is a subtropical luxury compared to such mornings under a southerly flowing high pressure system. Besides, unlike Perth, Sydney's winters are mostly sunny and dry due to the foehn effect and the subtropical ridge directing clear weather over us (despite the odd ECL event here and there). 
