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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 13:47:04 GMT -5
It's the same angle, before taking into account other factors.
I've tested the sun angle in my own apartment.
I have a SW facing window so when the sun is lower in the sky (shining more directly onto the back wall) I measure its effect at heating the room vs. when it is at a high angle in June/July. When it's at a higher angle the "footprint" of the sun in the room is on the floor and much smaller but its heating effect in the room is much greater regardless of this.
To test your theory about sun feeling warmer on your upright body you will have to experience both and see for yourself. I honestly think the difference would likely be imperceptible.
I find Buxton's sun to be stronger than similar latitudes in the UK because of it being higher up in altitude at least, and on a similar level to how it felt in SE England (which has a steeper sun angle than here).
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Post by Babu on Dec 14, 2017 13:49:22 GMT -5
Lol, no. People tend to exaggerate the weakness/strength of the sun due to latitude tremendously. And after all, weak sun is better than no sun. --- For the thread; I really can't give a good answer. This is a very hard climate battle. Lol, I partly made that light bulb comment to entice you into a reply. I've noticed that you seem to have a heart attack whenever someone suggests that the sun is weaker at those higher latitudes, which it is! Latitude has an unmistakable effect on sun intensity. www.who.int/uv/intersunprogramme/activities/uv_index/en/index3.html... UV index has nothing to do with how the sun feels on your skin. Unless you're burnt that is. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 13:52:12 GMT -5
So in that case the sun should feel much warmer when it's about to set than when it's high in the sky at mid-day. But it does not. Also, by this logic, the sun should feel barely noticeable at all at the equator when it's directly overhead. The higher the angle of the sun, the more focused is its intensity in any given area of land - so the sun is stronger here than further north when it comes to its effects on heating the ground. It's stronger in Buxton than Umea with regards to UV index and heating potential regardless of how you think it feels on your person. I'm talking purely from a climatic perspective. Discussing sun strength from a climate's perspective is kinda pointless when we already know the derived climate. We were discussing whether a sunny 20'C would feel warmer in Umeå or Buxton. And once you get above 45-50 degrees, the sun's strength doesn't get all that much more intense, and "angle of attack" starts getting way more important. This is all purely in June/July though, as outside of that, Umeå will have a low enough sun angle so that there actually is a sizeable intensity loss. Btw, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a 10° sun hitting an 80° angle (perpendicular) pretty much exactly the same strength as a 90 degree sun hitting an 80 degree angle? no, cuz a 10° sunray has to pass through considerably more of the earths atmosphere than a 80° sunray |
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Post by Ariete on Dec 14, 2017 13:54:34 GMT -5
I don't have a heart attack, I just find the sun angle exaggeration ridiculous. After all, Umeå has a higher sun angle than Buxton during summer - morning and evening- |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 13:58:33 GMT -5
... UV index has nothing to do with how the sun feels on your skin. Unless you're burnt that is. True, but a more intense sun generally produces higher UV levels. More intensity = feels stronger. I thought the sun felt noticeably warmer at 40N than at locations at 50N, stands the reason that the sun in Buxton would also have a warmer-feeling sun than Umea. Perhaps I'm not getting the gist of it, but your suggestion that the sun feels warmer up at 63.8N seems absurd. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 14:00:11 GMT -5
I don't have a heart attack, I just find the sun angle exaggeration ridiculous. After all, Umeå has a higher sun angle than Buxton during summer - morning and evening- I'll have to visit that part of the world one day and see for myself. I guess. |
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Post by Babu on Dec 14, 2017 14:01:51 GMT -5
Discussing sun strength from a climate's perspective is kinda pointless when we already know the derived climate. We were discussing whether a sunny 20'C would feel warmer in Umeå or Buxton. And once you get above 45-50 degrees, the sun's strength doesn't get all that much more intense, and "angle of attack" starts getting way more important. This is all purely in June/July though, as outside of that, Umeå will have a low enough sun angle so that there actually is a sizeable intensity loss. Btw, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a 10° sun hitting an 80° angle (perpendicular) pretty much exactly the same strength as a 90 degree sun hitting an 80 degree angle? no, cuz a 10° sunray has to pass through considerably more of the earths atmosphere than a 80° sunray No, I mean a 10° sun vs a 10° "angle of attack". A 90° sun hitting a 80° plane will hit it with 1/5.7 strength. And a 10° sun angle would travel through 5.7 times as much air berofore hitting the perpendicular plane, IF the atmosphere was a square. However, since the atmosphere is circular, it would actually travel through less air. In that case, a 10° sun might actually be stronger against an 80° angled wall than a 90° sun is. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 14:02:15 GMT -5
I don't have a heart attack, I just find the sun angle exaggeration ridiculous. After all, Umeå has a higher sun angle than Buxton during summer - morning and evening- Nobody's exaggerating anything. I find the claim that Umea's sun would feel warmer is an exaggeration, that cannot be proven scientifically and it's probably a matter of opinion when it comes to asking people which they think "feels" warmer. You'd likely get different answers from all sorts of people. My take is that the difference is likely hardly perceptible, that this is a stupid argument, and Baba should just be happy he gets 500 hours more sun than Buxton.  |
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Post by Ariete on Dec 14, 2017 14:02:48 GMT -5
I'll have to visit that part of the world one day and see for myself. I guess. Well, Ben visited Tampere in summer and he thought that "I won't burn this far north", but oh how wrong he was.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 14:04:39 GMT -5
I'll have to visit that part of the world one day and see for myself. I guess. Well, Ben visited Tampere in summer and he thought that "I won't burn this far north", but oh how wrong he was. But Ben's a Yorkshireman. Legend has it that he once burned in an underground nuclear bunker  |
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Post by Babu on Dec 14, 2017 14:06:55 GMT -5
I don't have a heart attack, I just find the sun angle exaggeration ridiculous. After all, Umeå has a higher sun angle than Buxton during summer - morning and evening- I'll have to visit that part of the world one day and see for myself. I guess. I don't get this. No you don't. For example, in Cardiff on the last of July, the sun angle will be the same as Umeå's noon at around 16.00. |
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Post by Babu on Dec 14, 2017 14:07:52 GMT -5
I'll have to visit that part of the world one day and see for myself. I guess. I don't get this. No you don't. For example, in Cardiff on the last of July, the sun angle will be 45°, the same as Umeå's noon, at around 16.00. |
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Post by Ariete on Dec 14, 2017 14:08:10 GMT -5
Nobody's exaggerating anything. I find the claim that Umea's sun would feel warmer is an exaggeration, that cannot be proven scientifically and it's probably a matter of opinion when it comes to asking people which they think "feels" warmer. You'd likely get different answers from all sorts of people. Due to the higher latitude Umeå has a less steeper arc in sunshine, having a stronger UV in morning and evening. That's all I'm saying. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 14:08:42 GMT -5
I'll have to visit that part of the world one day and see for myself. I guess. I don't get this. No you don't. For example, in Cardiff on the last of July, the sun angle will be the same as Umeå's noon at around 16.00. So will it be the shoulder seasons that see more of a benefit from the latitude? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 14:09:13 GMT -5
I'll have to visit that part of the world one day and see for myself. I guess. I don't get this. No you don't. For example, in Cardiff on the last of July, the sun angle will be the same as Umeå's noon at around 16.00. You must have missed the bit where I already said I tested this, with a thermometer to measure the thermal effect on the same day in June. The steeper sun angle had the more rapid effect on raising the temperature - through a window which is obviously on a vertical plane. I can demonstrate that with a 2$ thermometer in my computer room. |
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Post by Babu on Dec 14, 2017 14:10:05 GMT -5
I don't have a heart attack, I just find the sun angle exaggeration ridiculous. After all, Umeå has a higher sun angle than Buxton during summer - morning and evening- Nobody's exaggerating anything. I find the claim that Umea's sun would feel warmer is an exaggeration, that cannot be proven scientifically and it's probably a matter of opinion when it comes to asking people which they think "feels" warmer. You'd likely get different answers from all sorts of people. My take is that the difference is likely hardly perceptible, that this is a stupid argument, and Baba should just be happy he gets 500 hours more sun than Buxton. What I said in my previous comment where I compared Umeå to NZ was mathematical fact, assuming your body is a flat rectangle. |
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Post by Babu on Dec 14, 2017 14:11:01 GMT -5
I don't get this. No you don't. For example, in Cardiff on the last of July, the sun angle will be the same as Umeå's noon at around 16.00. So will it be the shoulder seasons that see more of a benefit from the latitude? Absolutely. The peak angle is only above 45° for like three months. Outside of that, the sun strength really does start to diminish. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 14:12:50 GMT -5
Still doesn't have the effect on how warm it will feel that you think though, as tested. The sun when higher might be shining less on the side of your body, but where it is, it is much more intense, so its effect on making you feel warm is still greater. Same effect with the window test - the window is installed on the wall (i.e vertical plane) meaning the less sun is getting in the room, (the window shape of sun cast in the room is smaller) but it is still more effective at heating the room than when it is at a shallower angle. The aspect of the sun that heats you up is infra-red energy, and it is much more focused and intense at steeper sun angles, end of the story.
If what you say really affects the feel of heat from the sun so much, then when I use a thermometer in the sun it should read higher lying down flat on the ground, and suddenly drop when I hold it vertically so that sun hits it at a much more oblique angle. This does not happen.
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Post by Babu on Dec 14, 2017 14:16:50 GMT -5
Still doesn't have the effect on how warm it will feel that you think though, as tested. The sun when higher might be shining less on the side of your body, but where it is, it is much more intense, so its effect on making you feel warm is still greater. Same effect with the window test - the window is installed on the wall (i.e vertical plane) meaning the less sun is getting in the room, (the window shape of sun cast in the room is smaller) but it is still more effective at heating the room than when it is at a shallower angle. The aspect of the sun that heats you up is infra-red energy, and it is much more focused and intense at steeper sun angles regardless of what angle it his your body on. No absolutely. I already said that too. The sun in NZ will feel stronger because there will be an a lot starker contrast between exposed and none exposed body parts (shoulders will be on fire when the rest of the body is cool) whereas the sun in Umeå would be more reminiscent of having IR heaters arouns you; you don't feel that they're strong. It just feels almost like if the warm around you is warmer. |
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Post by deneb78 on Dec 14, 2017 15:15:09 GMT -5
Buxton for milder winters.
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