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Post by desiccatedi85 on Mar 3, 2024 9:56:12 GMT -5
The coconut growers on South Padre Island, Texas, and Central Florida know this too well.... Good luck with having a go there in the Greek Islands, I wish y'all well..... Yeah but Texas and Central Florida can get very low absolute minimums. I mean they even beat central Greece with their crazy abs minimums. The south Greek islands are nowhere near such extreme absolute minimums. Also our winters are generally sunny in the south. Especially in Lindos where we currently have the first outdoors surviving coconut tree we get over 3100 hours of sunshine annually according to Greece's national met office weather Atlas. I mean I don't know if that plays a role for its survival. You are right it's definitely ''zone pushing'' and the climate is generally hostile but we can't never know until we try... Not sure about Deep South Texas, but I know some Central Florida coconuts have been successfully grown and fruiting for decades now. Winter high temps average well into the 70sÂșF there, and nowhere in Greece could even dream of that winter warmth. Coconut palms need winter warmth (and they like winter sun and dryness), not simply the absence of extreme cold. This is why you see coconut palms in hardiness zone 10 in Florida, but not in hardiness zone 10 in coastal California. Winter in CA is just too cool for them, and likewise in anywhere in Greece.
caspase8 I didn't know that Sunshine Coast AU had coconut palms, but makes sense. Climate there is extremely similar to central Florida. Two borderline subtropical/tropical areas with warm, dry, sunny winters that the coconuts like.
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Post by Marcelo on Mar 3, 2024 10:43:07 GMT -5
OK, Let's try to settle some things that were discussed last night in the shoutbox... Yeah so give us your opinion on why Kastellorizo has a 21.7C annual mean? Please do share with us on why these values are ''miraculously'' hot. I am keen to hear what u have to say using real arguments and not some half arsed ironies or random comparisons with vastly different areas. I donât know why that station has an average so high compared to nearby places, located at similar altitude and exposed to more or less the same weather patterns, so being skeptical about the data is a healthy approach to begin with. Whether the data turns out to be reliable, outlandish or useless, should be tested. I donât have any tools at hand other than data from several stations, experience in civil works, and basic knowledge of atmosphere physics, but I think itâs good enough to give an educated guess.
(1) You are the first to compare data from wildly different periods of record, so donât complain if itâs used against you. If anything, it shows you arenât honest. You just want to push a narrative of how warm/mild the place is; if the period of record can be overlooked, the better: And just look at this stunning 21.7C average annual temperature. Only behind Lindos which stands at 21.9C. On par with the Canaries. In any case, a station with a 6-year period should never be used as ânormalsâ. They donât make ânormalsâ. Only exception for its usage could be very remote/high altitude locations in which the data serves for rather illustrative purposes, for instance, data for a Mt Everest base camp at +6000 m above the sea level.
While itâs true that the recent years were among the hottest in almost everywhere in the world, they werenât THAT MUCH hotter compared to the 1991-2020 period overall. For instance, in Finike, Turkey (the closest Turkish station Iâve got this info), the 1991-2020 average is 19.8C and the Sep 2018-Feb 2024 average is 20.5C, expectedly higher than the 30-year normals but nowhere near the 2C difference suggested by the Kastellorizo station. Therefore, the different period of records CANNOT EXPLAIN the discrepancy.
(2) So, it is either local effects due to the specific location or the quality of the data. The different equipment used for different weather stations SHOULD NEVER result in different readings, at least not outside a very small margin. This is what STANDARDS are about. It's not colder than these averages. It's the real averages unless you fall for Marcello's crap logic that somehow the totally different areas in terms or geography and orography with different types of stations can somehow compare to the Kastellorizo station. Even the closest station Kas is at 153 meters altitude in the interior of the city with a different type of met station and for totally different time spans. He compares 30 years vs 6 years. This disappointing (but not unexpected) comment gives me the clue that you have no idea about what youâre talking about.
(3) As geographically complex as the Eastern Mediterranean is, it is by no means unique or extreme, nothing unseen everywhere else in the world, and no matter how local effects impact every spot, they are ultimately subject to both synoptic patterns and common forcings caused by simple physics. So, you have both vertical and horizontal movement of air caused by pressure changes and thatâs it. In that regard, the geographic location of the Kastellorizo station is as dull as it gets: an extremely maritime place on the easternmost point of a tiny island that has some low hills that donât even reach 300 m. Local impact is limited and weather is massively influenced by both the sea and the same regional patterns that affect Southern Turkey, so no matter how much adiabatic warming it gets, Kas will get more for the sake of its location on a sloppy area subject to a much more aggressive vertical gradient. There are other stations in the area, such as in Fethiye. In fact, Kas (19.9C), Fethiye (19.1C) and Finike (19.8C) are as different to each other and they are to Kastellorizo. Fethiye is located on a flat area, so it gets the largest thermal amplitude and lowest minimums out the bunch thanks to both thermal inversions and least frequency of adiabatic warming. Finike has some features in between. The local geography is wonderfully represented in the slight variations of every one of these three stations. However, when it comes to Kastellorizo, it doesnât make sense anymore. The station is mostly surrounded by the sea, and the only geographic features which may cause any disturbance are in the west, as in Finike, but they are much smaller in both size and surface, so there is no way they can disrupt the local climate in such an extreme point. If there is one, you are the one the provide a reasonable explanation. As for me, the only option left is that the station provides bogus data.
(4) The picture of the station that you posted, as well as other pictures of stations from this network, are red flags to me. A red flag doesnât mean certainty but âdangerâ, something you must watch because it doesnât look right, and effectively it matches the concerns raised in the previous point. When you are into civil works, project management and maintenance of infrastructure, you can foresee who gives a shit about a job. A good project has strict design plans, a set of materials and procedures examined by professionals, quality control, etc. The stations of the National Observatory of Athens look like a rush job to complete on a deadline whose goal is having it done instead of providing good results. It looks as if they had lightly surveyed where there were idle iron poles where the equipment could be hung, some electrical terminal to power the station, M2M or Ethernet connection, and thatâs it. The work I see does not suggest, for example, that the people in charge are committed to periodically calibrating the equipment or checking that the data make sense at all. Unfortunately, Iâve been myself involved in some works where the client only wanted to complete a checklist so that some politicians could boast about the job done, with absolutely zero interest in having it properly done. Maybe because I come from a country which has systematically done this is that it infuriates me when people defend mediocrity while embracing random nationalistic sentiments. And it is doubly painful when the other person has common interests that (I consider) might even be socially important on the bigger picture, but are foolishly wasted.
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Post by Ariete on Mar 3, 2024 11:25:23 GMT -5
The stations of the National Observatory of Athens look like a rush job to complete on a deadline whose goal is having it done instead of providing good results. It looks as if they had lightly surveyed where there were idle iron poles where the equipment could be hung, some electrical terminal to power the station, M2M or Ethernet connection, and thatâs it. The work I see does not suggest, for example, that the people in charge are committed to periodically calibrating the equipment or checking that the data make sense at all. Unfortunately, Iâve been myself involved in some works where the client only wanted to complete a checklist so that some politicians could boast about the job done, with absolutely zero interest in having it properly done.
You just summed up the whole of modern Greece.
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Post by southathens on Mar 3, 2024 15:42:05 GMT -5
Yeah but Texas and Central Florida can get very low absolute minimums. I mean they even beat central Greece with their crazy abs minimums. The south Greek islands are nowhere near such extreme absolute minimums. Also our winters are generally sunny in the south. Especially in Lindos where we currently have the first outdoors surviving coconut tree we get over 3100 hours of sunshine annually according to Greece's national met office weather Atlas. I mean I don't know if that plays a role for its survival. You are right it's definitely ''zone pushing'' and the climate is generally hostile but we can't never know until we try... Coconut palms need winter warmth (and they like winter sun and dryness), Check my earlier post on Kasos and Psari Forada. We do get around higher winter highs locally and also we have dry winters in various areas of the south Greek isles. In fact precipitation in the extreme south is almost never through prolong wet periods. These are sporadic storms that falls mostly within a couple of days per month and then we are back to sunny weather.
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Post by southathens on Mar 3, 2024 17:16:21 GMT -5
You are the first to compare data from wildly different periods of record, so donât complain if itâs used against you. If anything, it shows you arenât honest. You just want to push a narrative of how warm/mild the place is; if the period of record can be overlooked, the better: Oh my what a change in tone! I guess the fact that Kastellorizo is a fan aspirated WMO station placed on the ground is really difficult to challenge. I don't know where you got that I compare data from different periods. Even in the Almeria vs Monemvasia thread I compared identical periods and here I ran no comparison. You are simply making assumptions based on my enthusiasm on hot weather . Obviously you like to attack the messenger when you know that you do not have solid arguments. At least that's my take and I get why some people are like this. Now let's see Here is the core issue. It strikes me as odd that you have chosen to downplay Kastellorizo's geography. I mean when there is no real argument in terms of ''attacking'' a station that challenges our viewpoints then some people will result to generalizations just to shake up things. As we can see the WMO station is blocked from the NW tip by hills as high as 200 meters while immediately in the S it is completely blocked by the Vigla mountain range (around 300 meters highest elevations) which effectively cuts Kastellorizo in half. More recently we have seen in Europe how significant the foehn effect can be even from smaller hills when the WMO accepted the 48.8C new European record in Sicily. The fact that you are comparing Finike 52 kms away for only 18 months of parallel functioning and with completely different geography is a desperate argument most would say. Below a close up screenshot from Google Earth on the exact location of the station (its noted as ''meteo.gr'' in the screenshot) As we can see the WMO station is located at the edge of a remote area where Greece's national power company houses its branch in Kastellorizo. So also no way UHI can drive up Ts as this is not an urban location (I will get back on why urban observations are important when we examine NOA's network later in my post). Your quote above is one of the most ''autistic'' speculations you can read from people who have no real exposure to fan aspirated stations. Even under similar standard conditions discrepancies between passive and fan aspirated stations are huge!And now let's get back to the importance of urban observations and why it might appear like your quote above. Davis fan aspirated stations are used specifically to provide accurate urban meteorological observations. As per manufacturer guidelines these stations can be used in the most extreme urban environments (be it rooftops, crappy placement due to lack of appropriate station sites in heavily urbanized areas etc) and still provide not only equal but much better accuracy to Stevenson Screen stations. Basically fan aspiration is the golden standard in modern meteorology. I had a smirk when I read this assumption above but I do not blame you. It's normal for some people to think like that when they do not fully comprehend that the National Observatory of Athens is among the most serious Research Institutes in the Balkans and South Europe.Their metadata quality control is next to none in Greece. In fact the general public in Greece tends to trust NOA more than Greece's National Met Office (HNMS). It has been historically at the forefront of modern research in the Balkans. Below the exhaustive list of malfunctions found and addressed through their quality control checks in Kastellorizo station throughout the years. Sorry it's in Greek but should you use meteo search functionality in NOA's website you can google translate the text to get a proper translation in English. In fact I had contacted twice Mr. Zamagias who is the station supervisor and he informed me that the station is maintained and calibrated at regular intervals and all actions are thoroughly communicated to NOA through a state of the art internal database. I don't know where your country is but calling the National Observatory of Athens ''mediocre'' is really ignorant. Here you can get a taste of how serious NOA is when it comes to their Davis fan aspirated meteorological stations network. Currently Greece's richest met station network and one of the richest in Europe. On a personal note I was really impressed with the sheer professionalism and scientific profile NOA has when a few years back while doing my PhD thesis I had to contact them for research purposes. Come on mate. We are talking about one of the most serious Research Institutes in Europe. Don't stoop that low.
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Post by aabc123 on Mar 4, 2024 6:02:10 GMT -5
I do not know. But If a war broke out between Greece and, for example, Spain, which one is warmer, I would support Greece. â
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Post by Ethereal on Mar 4, 2024 6:42:28 GMT -5
No, but Greece is pretty warm for its latitude though.
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Post by southathens on Mar 4, 2024 6:56:24 GMT -5
I do not know. But If a war broke out between Greece and, for example, Spain, which one is warmer, I would support Greece. â why?
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Post by southathens on Mar 4, 2024 6:58:44 GMT -5
No, but Greece is pretty warm for its latitude though. I think Athens and the islands yes. This is mostly due to the summer averages in Greece which drive annual Ts very high. Especially our summer minimums are notorious for European standards.
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Post by Ariete on Mar 4, 2024 7:15:33 GMT -5
Especially our summer minimums are notorious for European standards.
Sincerely doubt that.
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Post by aabc123 on Mar 4, 2024 7:40:03 GMT -5
I do not know. But If a war broke out between Greece and, for example, Spain, which one is warmer, I would support Greece. â why? Just like that. i guess i like Greece more than Spain.
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Post by southathens on Mar 4, 2024 9:15:01 GMT -5
Especially our summer minimums are notorious for European standards.
Sincerely doubt that.
It's because you are clueless that's why.
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Post by AJ1013 on Mar 4, 2024 9:18:35 GMT -5
100% they can. Iâve been there personally and there are tall fruiting cocos everywhere.
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Post by southathens on Mar 4, 2024 9:29:13 GMT -5
100% they can. Iâve been there personally and there are tall fruiting cocos everywhere. lol
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Post by southathens on Mar 4, 2024 9:39:40 GMT -5
And here is how Kas at sea level from the Davis fan aspirated station in the Marina compares to Kastellorizo Davis fan aspirated station last month. 16.0C mean T in Kastellorizo vs 15.5C in Kas which is to be expected since Kastellorizo is an island and much more maritime. Minimal differences and as expected slightly in favor of Kastellorizo mildness.
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Post by Ariete on Mar 4, 2024 9:56:39 GMT -5
It's because you are clueless that's why.
I don't think people generally see summer lows being warmer in Greece than anywhere else in the Mediterranean.
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Post by southathens on Mar 4, 2024 10:25:05 GMT -5
It's because you are clueless that's why.
I don't think people generally see summer lows being warmer in Greece than anywhere else in the Mediterranean.
Thank me later for my contribution to your better understanding.
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Post by southathens on Mar 4, 2024 10:28:58 GMT -5
Below how Kas Marina vs Kastellorizo WMO compare with the same type of Davis fan aspirated stations. Unfortunately even though Kas Marina started operation in April 2023 there are many daily gaps between Apr 2023 and Nov 2023. So for only the 3 full months of parallel operation below u can see how they compare. Extremely close monthly means. Slightly higher minimums in Kastellorizo as to be expected due to the fact that it is an island with stronger maritime influences and Kas is on the Turkish mainland.
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Post by desiccatedi85 on Mar 4, 2024 17:02:48 GMT -5
Greece does have warm minimums for the Mediterranean. This is because it has a lot of islands and other coastal area, and the eastern Mediterranean has significantly warmer sea temps than the western part.
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Post by southathens on Mar 4, 2024 18:21:54 GMT -5
Greece does have warm minimums for the Mediterranean. This is because it has a lot of islands and other coastal area, and the eastern Mediterranean has significantly warmer sea temps than the western part. Yes. Greece's SE location within Europe and its closeness to Asia/Africa play an important role for our extremely high summer lows compared to the rest of Europe.
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